i_love_cars

Oh, I thought it should have been "wow, that's not a good deal at all" or "why are shit e30's so expensive?"

I would rather take a sharp stick in the eye than drive a 1984 car paired to an automatic transmission 

that is logic I can get behind.

I would rather take a sharp stick in the eye than drive a 1984 car paired to an automatic transmission 

I would rather take a sharp stick in the eye than drive a 1984 car paired to an automatic transmission 

Buying a home will, in general, be a better option for most of the population.  The numbers don't work, when figured like ILC or I have described, but most people, or the average person, will not invest the difference when renting, therefore ending up with less than if you had bought.  

it's all good Jake. 
 
Please note that when I say "you" as follows, it pertains to generically speaking anyone. It isn't directed at any individual. 
 
What I'm seeing here is common which is posturing of this attitude like "yeah I'm set, I got it bro. I'm so successful in my early 20's working for somebody else that they give me enough scraps off their plate that I can buy X". No, you aren't set. You've accomplished nothing. You make dogshit as far as real money is concerned, and it isn't enough to ever be independent. I hate seeing kids with a 2 in front of their age who think they've somehow "made it" with their little degree and their little job, or worse - still finishing school and trying to explain to the world that they have all this opportunity and things will be so grand and perfect. Yes, congrats, you've just become like millions of other people running the rat race. Giving people the rundown on how you've stood up a run-of-the-mill modern Western life isn't impressive.
 
Here's an idea: rather than talking about how little is owed on a car or house, or justifying expenses of cars, all based on some small income and this little box that 99% of 20-somethings fall into - instead talk about how you're going to start a business or invest in some way that will fund your car desires 1000x over down the road. So you have a house? Houses are money pits. They are not investments. Nice to have but quite possibly the WORST thing you can do in your early 20's is to buy a house that YOU pay for. I say YOU because if you rent it and someone else pays the interest and taxes and cash flows your escrow to repair stuff on it, then it's not the worst thing anymore.
 
Working hard is something to be proud of. Working hard for material things like cars and houses is stupid. Work hard to become smarter about how to have the experiences you as a person want out of life
 
Storytime:
I grew up playing soccer with a buddy who I still play with to this day. 20+ years. Really nice, unassuming guy. He was failing physics in high school so he started the physicsforums website as a place for people to answer questions, etc. He took that and ran with it, still went to UWM and got a comp sci degree just to have a fallback (positioning), but he's never worked for anyone beyond the age of 18. The forums took off and now he has the likes of Harvard professors contributing content. He has a 6 figure RESIDUAL income from the traffic and literally spent his entire 20's out of the USA for 9 months out of the year. Every year. all he did was travel the world and he still to this day at the age of 32 does not have to work for anyone and is currently spending summer in Tanzania and surrounding countries. 
 
THAT is success. It's not about having X number of dollars to buy a house or cars or whatever or being "rich" - it's about having the freedom to pursue what is important to you at your leisure, on your own clock, not having to answer to someone demanding you are 9-5 somewhere 5 days a week or whatever the case may be unless you truly want that structure in your life. He was smart about what he did, rather than just "work hard" to do the "yea i'm gonna go to college and get a job and ride that one out", and now he has infinitely more freedom to do what he wants with his life, not beholden to the whims of banks, employers, or any other form of debtor. 
 
I do very well for myself but usually all I can ever think about is how I'm going to get my next property in order to get to a point where someday I can say "I will do what I want on my own terms and I do not need this job". I really want to be able to coach soccer again, and I'd love to get enough track time where I can start instructing. I'd love to be able to travel as a software consultant maybe a couple months a year helping companies understand architecture that really want to learn and better themselves, rather than be tied to some elitist investment firm like I am now who favors politics over progress. I'd love to have time to help young entrepreneurs get started, even help bankroll them or fund ideas because I personally know how hard it is to get capital to pursue things like that. But I can't do any of those things right now because I wasn't smart until age 25 when I started getting properties for myself and doing web development outside of my day job because I knew I'd never even have a shot at some semblance of freedom otherwise. 13 years from now, when I'm 45, my goal is to be able to do all those things on my own terms. But I'm ok with that because I've defined the goal, the terms of it, what I want and how I will keep myself sane in the meantime *cough* with my modestly priced 135i *cough*. 
 
So when I see people just starting out, who have done nothing of any merit or value yet in the world, spouting off about these typical things around cars, houses, student loans, credit cards, whatever, yadda yadda modern Western society "success" criteria - all I can think about is this:
 
STOP. THINK.
 
You wanna work hard? Great. In your 20's when you have the time and energy to work that hard, at least put your efforts into working hard where a portion of that counts towards helping yourself in the long run. Whatever you give to an employer is making them 20x what they pay you. They bank on that. You're being utterly robbed. Don't get me wrong, I know the system needs millions of work-a-day rat race chumps who will never go anywhere in life, I get that. But at that point all your eggs are in one basket. There is an untold amount of opportunity available for people who want a less stressful life with more freedom to do the things they want if they are smart about it. Almost anybody with intelligence and skills can do something in addition to their regular job to help build themselves up a buffer and start separating themselves. 
 
Do something for yourself in order to insulate yourself from corporations and a world that in general doesn't give a damn about you. The sooner you understand that and work towards it, the sooner you can pursue passion around cars or whatever without caring about the financials. 
 
I know people who can literally write checks for over 100 million dollars. I'm not talking assets - I'm talking liquid cash available on-hand. And you know what? Those people who own big like that are always selling, liquidating, and moving on. That's opportunity for creative, smart people. There's plenty of ways you can be smarter where you "work hard" but you are not "working hard at a career job". and it doesn't even have to be real estate like what I am into. For example, I also am always checking out sites like Quiet Light Brokerage - they broker deals of sales of websites - everything from drop ship businesses to e-commerce to amazon re-sellers to you name it. These are things you can buy small or big, some even potentially grow and flip with some smart moves.
The bottom line is this: work "hard" but realize you need emphasis on being smart about what you're going hard at, and position yourself to react to the inevitable changes in your life. Nobody cares if you have cash to buy a car right now or how little you owe on your house because honestly that means nothing in the grand scheme of things. It seems big to you at a young age but there is a much broader stroke that everyone should keep in mind and the more money you blow on stupid shit at a young age, the less you are positioning yourself for the future.
 
again, let's not mix this up and make the mistake of boiling it down to having X number of dollars. Define what you want to do in your life, what you're passionate about, and then determine if you are happy giving that up to work for someone else for mediocre money that may get you a few nice-to-haves like a used BMW or a small house. Realize that every dollar you spend now moves you further away from your goal if you are blowing it on cars or anything like it.
 
Nobody here needs to agree with me, but in the past 8 years I've met a lot of people who are independently able to pursue what they want in life and they don't need to even talk about the costs of BMWs. I know how they did it, the underlying premise is all the same, and all I'm trying to do here is help add some perspective to people who are smart enough to realize that they have opportunity to not struggle as much. And for any of you to say you aren't struggling is a lie. If you don't believe me when I say that, then that means you don't grasp what I'm saying. Stop trying to justify to the world why you're doing what you're doing right now because of how awesome you think you've set yourself up. The unassuming millionaire in his 1988 Corolla doesn't care because he's going to spend the rest of the day on his boat staring at clouds contemplating the mysteries of the universe, without a care in the world. 

it's all good Jake. 
 
Please note that when I say "you" as follows, it pertains to generically speaking anyone. It isn't directed at any individual. 
 
What I'm seeing here is common which is posturing of this attitude like "yeah I'm set, I got it bro. I'm so successful in my early 20's working for somebody else that they give me enough scraps off their plate that I can buy X". No, you aren't set. You've accomplished nothing. You make dogshit as far as real money is concerned, and it isn't enough to ever be independent. I hate seeing kids with a 2 in front of their age who think they've somehow "made it" with their little degree and their little job, or worse - still finishing school and trying to explain to the world that they have all this opportunity and things will be so grand and perfect. Yes, congrats, you've just become like millions of other people running the rat race. Giving people the rundown on how you've stood up a run-of-the-mill modern Western life isn't impressive.
 
Here's an idea: rather than talking about how little is owed on a car or house, or justifying expenses of cars, all based on some small income and this little box that 99% of 20-somethings fall into - instead talk about how you're going to start a business or invest in some way that will fund your car desires 1000x over down the road. So you have a house? Houses are money pits. They are not investments. Nice to have but quite possibly the WORST thing you can do in your early 20's is to buy a house that YOU pay for. I say YOU because if you rent it and someone else pays the interest and taxes and cash flows your escrow to repair stuff on it, then it's not the worst thing anymore.
 
Working hard is something to be proud of. Working hard for material things like cars and houses is stupid. Work hard to become smarter about how to have the experiences you as a person want out of life
 
Storytime:
I grew up playing soccer with a buddy who I still play with to this day. 20+ years. Really nice, unassuming guy. He was failing physics in high school so he started the physicsforums website as a place for people to answer questions, etc. He took that and ran with it, still went to UWM and got a comp sci degree just to have a fallback (positioning), but he's never worked for anyone beyond the age of 18. The forums took off and now he has the likes of Harvard professors contributing content. He has a 6 figure RESIDUAL income from the traffic and literally spent his entire 20's out of the USA for 9 months out of the year. Every year. all he did was travel the world and he still to this day at the age of 32 does not have to work for anyone and is currently spending summer in Tanzania and surrounding countries. 
 
THAT is success. It's not about having X number of dollars to buy a house or cars or whatever or being "rich" - it's about having the freedom to pursue what is important to you at your leisure, on your own clock, not having to answer to someone demanding you are 9-5 somewhere 5 days a week or whatever the case may be unless you truly want that structure in your life. He was smart about what he did, rather than just "work hard" to do the "yea i'm gonna go to college and get a job and ride that one out", and now he has infinitely more freedom to do what he wants with his life, not beholden to the whims of banks, employers, or any other form of debtor. 
 
I do very well for myself but usually all I can ever think about is how I'm going to get my next property in order to get to a point where someday I can say "I will do what I want on my own terms and I do not need this job". I really want to be able to coach soccer again, and I'd love to get enough track time where I can start instructing. I'd love to be able to travel as a software consultant maybe a couple months a year helping companies understand architecture that really want to learn and better themselves, rather than be tied to some elitist investment firm like I am now who favors politics over progress. I'd love to have time to help young entrepreneurs get started, even help bankroll them or fund ideas because I personally know how hard it is to get capital to pursue things like that. But I can't do any of those things right now because I wasn't smart until age 25 when I started getting properties for myself and doing web development outside of my day job because I knew I'd never even have a shot at some semblance of freedom otherwise. 13 years from now, when I'm 45, my goal is to be able to do all those things on my own terms. But I'm ok with that because I've defined the goal, the terms of it, what I want and how I will keep myself sane in the meantime *cough* with my modestly priced 135i *cough*. 
 
So when I see people just starting out, who have done nothing of any merit or value yet in the world, spouting off about these typical things around cars, houses, student loans, credit cards, whatever, yadda yadda modern Western society "success" criteria - all I can think about is this:
 
STOP. THINK.
 
You wanna work hard? Great. In your 20's when you have the time and energy to work that hard, at least put your efforts into working hard where a portion of that counts towards helping yourself in the long run. Whatever you give to an employer is making them 20x what they pay you. They bank on that. You're being utterly robbed. Don't get me wrong, I know the system needs millions of work-a-day rat race chumps who will never go anywhere in life, I get that. But at that point all your eggs are in one basket. There is an untold amount of opportunity available for people who want a less stressful life with more freedom to do the things they want if they are smart about it. Almost anybody with intelligence and skills can do something in addition to their regular job to help build themselves up a buffer and start separating themselves. 
 
Do something for yourself in order to insulate yourself from corporations and a world that in general doesn't give a damn about you. The sooner you understand that and work towards it, the sooner you can pursue passion around cars or whatever without caring about the financials. 
 
I know people who can literally write checks for over 100 million dollars. I'm not talking assets - I'm talking liquid cash available on-hand. And you know what? Those people who own big like that are always selling, liquidating, and moving on. That's opportunity for creative, smart people. There's plenty of ways you can be smarter where you "work hard" but you are not "working hard at a career job". and it doesn't even have to be real estate like what I am into. For example, I also am always checking out sites like Quiet Light Brokerage - they broker deals of sales of websites - everything from drop ship businesses to e-commerce to amazon re-sellers to you name it. These are things you can buy small or big, some even potentially grow and flip with some smart moves.
The bottom line is this: work "hard" but realize you need emphasis on being smart about what you're going hard at, and position yourself to react to the inevitable changes in your life. Nobody cares if you have cash to buy a car right now or how little you owe on your house because honestly that means nothing in the grand scheme of things. It seems big to you at a young age but there is a much broader stroke that everyone should keep in mind and the more money you blow on stupid shit at a young age, the less you are positioning yourself for the future.
 
again, let's not mix this up and make the mistake of boiling it down to having X number of dollars. Define what you want to do in your life, what you're passionate about, and then determine if you are happy giving that up to work for someone else for mediocre money that may get you a few nice-to-haves like a used BMW or a small house. Realize that every dollar you spend now moves you further away from your goal if you are blowing it on cars or anything like it.
 
Nobody here needs to agree with me, but in the past 8 years I've met a lot of people who are independently able to pursue what they want in life and they don't need to even talk about the costs of BMWs. I know how they did it, the underlying premise is all the same, and all I'm trying to do here is help add some perspective to people who are smart enough to realize that they have opportunity to not struggle as much. And for any of you to say you aren't struggling is a lie. If you don't believe me when I say that, then that means you don't grasp what I'm saying. Stop trying to justify to the world why you're doing what you're doing right now because of how awesome you think you've set yourself up. The unassuming millionaire in his 1988 Corolla doesn't care because he's going to spend the rest of the day on his boat staring at clouds contemplating the mysteries of the universe, without a care in the world. 

there is so much fail here. 
 
I can't manage a response to this discussion without being insulting. 

The way that a mortgage amortizes makes homes in your early 20's a bad investment vehicle. The first 10 years of a 30 yr mortgage are going to be almost entirely interest. Your only equity at that point is in upgrades or market appreciation. In raw dollars, a house usually is worth 80%-100% more than when you bought it if you pay it off at term of 30 years. However, you have also paid nearly double your original purchase price in interest, plus repairs, potentially PMI, potentially HOA, and HOI. So in reality you aren't really coming out ahead. All you're doing is at best breaking even unless you're in a housing bubble, but you can't plan for that or bank on it. That's just stupid. If you turn around and say "well I am paying extra on principal every month", ok great, except for the fact that the money is doing utterly nothing for you right now because you won't see any of that money come back until you sell the house (maybe) X number of years down the road. You aren't doing yourself any favors. Time/value of money says that's a bad idea when you're starting out. Especially on a secured piece of debt like a house. If you meet LTV ratios you can potentially take a line of credit out, but only if you put 20% down and then after that over the course of let's say 3 years if you are paying down principal, you are freeing up what? A few thousand bucks? Big deal that won't be you much at all if you are taking out a HELOC. 
 
also, most of the money you sink into a house is money you won't ever see back. Furnace, A/C, water heater, roof, windows, landscaping, driveway/walkway/stoop repair, or foundation (god help you at that point), are tens of thousands of dollars that contribute absolutely nothing to increasing the value of a home in the real marketplace. The majority of buyers don't give a shit about anything other than floor plans + whatever the current trend is in kitchens and bathrooms. Those are your biggest money makers. 
 
If you get a house for let's say 32k like Rowley, there's really no harm in that because you can realistically pay it off very quickly. But you aren't going to get much house for 32k and certainly not as much resale value if it's that small (as noted smaller than 24x36) in the starter home market. But you also can't say it's cheaper than renting because right now in real terms it may be, however, any time you own a house you are taking a risk on what will break and it could be something significant. If you start having water problems in a basement before 5 years is up and you want to sell it? Have fun. You're either fixing it or sitting on it for a long time, or you're selling it for next to nothing because buyers will beat your ass up on the price. 
 
But if you're renting? You have 0 liability for stuff like that. All you need to do is not be a shitfuck and don't destroy the place you live at. 
 
It's about risk mitigation - if you are trying to achieve something that requires X number of dollars like start a particular business that has particular overhead costs or whatever, your best bet is to mitigate your risk of out-of-pocket expenses as much as possible. 
 
I started out with duplex with my wife and daughter, we lived there for 2 years. Then I bought a rehabber, lived in my in-laws' basement for 6 months while I went to my day job and then worked 6 days a week till 11 p.m. every night redoing 4 bathrooms, 2 kitchens, 1500 sq ft of hardwood floors, the list goes on. Then I moved in there for 2 years and it cost me 400 bucks a month to live there. I was able to sell that place for a significant profit. That place paid for the down payment on my business partner's single family home for himself, it paid for my absurd 15k engine build on my Acura TL, and eventually helped me get into the house i'm in now. Meanwhile I was looking for other duplexes. I found a place near Mt. Mary college that my partner and I bought. Looking hard at cost per unit - it was about 60k per unit for that duplex, and market rent is 750-800/mo per unit. 1 unit rented literally pays for everything at that point. The rest is just profit that all gets either repair escrow or goes to paying down the principal. 
 
all of these things have something in common which is mitigating cost by being patient for proper deals and understanding neighborhoods, cap rates, likely scenarios, etc. , and mitigating risk by never taking anything for ourselves. In 8 years all my cash flow from property has gone into principal or escrow for repairs. 
 
I pay my mortgage on my house that I live in now out of pocket because I have a wife and 2 young kids and we lived light for years and I shuffled them around and moved them from one place to the next 6 or 7 times probably in the past 7 years. Eventually there is an intangible benefit when you have a family to just stabilizing some things for them first, and then re-focusing on investments. But I still can't help but see myself as throwing money away at interest and risk of repairs here which will eat into my investing power. To me, I can't see it any other way - I hate the fact that I pay for my house out of my pocket and can't use other people's money to do that. i.e. profit from investments. But I made the decision to have a family and not sacrifice everything for the sake of just money. I acknowledge this and I never would criticize someone for going the route I did but I also will advise any early 20-something to be serious about what they want out of life and figure out how to get there, understand the roadblocks/events that can happen to slow that down, and understand what you are willing to live with and be happy with. 
 
For me, it all comes back to the OPM formula. Renting to people to have them pay your taxes, mortgages, interest, and repairs is a form of OPM , and the money to get the property they rent in the first place is from a bank of course which is OPM but again with cash flow from tenants, I'm insulated. So when I say buying a house in your 20's that you aren't using to either A) flip short term and can make actual money on, or rent out , is a bad idea, that's what I'm getting at. If you have 0 aspirations to do more with your life, fine do whatever you want and buy your house. If you have some amount of aspirations but obligations like family get in the way, then balance it at least and buy a cheaper starter home in a stable area. Exit strategy is everything. I never buy anything without an exit strategy. It either needs to be cheap enough under market value that I can sell it for what I paid for it even with my back against a wall or with minimal loss, or cash flow like a mofo so nobody can beat me up bad enough on price because I can always justify the cap rate, or it has to be in a neighborhood that has 1 in a million chance of going downhill (like the neighborhood I currently live in). Thirdly, if you have nothing but aspirations and 0 ties to anyone like kids or a wife, then don't a screwup - mitigate as much as you can.
 
Why? Time/value of money says so, that's why. Your time is cheap in your 20's, so every dollar you can push for yourself to get closer to your goals whatever they may be is amplified that much more because you have tons of time to fail fast and recover with your ideas and aspirations. 

I'm trying to "not be a shitfuck" currently.
That line cracked me up xD

The way that a mortgage amortizes makes homes in your early 20's a bad investment vehicle. The first 10 years of a 30 yr mortgage are going to be almost entirely interest. Your only equity at that point is in upgrades or market appreciation. In raw dollars, a house usually is worth 80%-100% more than when you bought it if you pay it off at term of 30 years. However, you have also paid nearly double your original purchase price in interest, plus repairs, potentially PMI, potentially HOA, and HOI. So in reality you aren't really coming out ahead. All you're doing is at best breaking even unless you're in a housing bubble, but you can't plan for that or bank on it. That's just stupid. If you turn around and say "well I am paying extra on principal every month", ok great, except for the fact that the money is doing utterly nothing for you right now because you won't see any of that money come back until you sell the house (maybe) X number of years down the road. You aren't doing yourself any favors. Time/value of money says that's a bad idea when you're starting out. Especially on a secured piece of debt like a house. If you meet LTV ratios you can potentially take a line of credit out, but only if you put 20% down and then after that over the course of let's say 3 years if you are paying down principal, you are freeing up what? A few thousand bucks? Big deal that won't be you much at all if you are taking out a HELOC. 
 
also, most of the money you sink into a house is money you won't ever see back. Furnace, A/C, water heater, roof, windows, landscaping, driveway/walkway/stoop repair, or foundation (god help you at that point), are tens of thousands of dollars that contribute absolutely nothing to increasing the value of a home in the real marketplace. The majority of buyers don't give a shit about anything other than floor plans + whatever the current trend is in kitchens and bathrooms. Those are your biggest money makers. 
 
If you get a house for let's say 32k like Rowley, there's really no harm in that because you can realistically pay it off very quickly. But you aren't going to get much house for 32k and certainly not as much resale value if it's that small (as noted smaller than 24x36) in the starter home market. But you also can't say it's cheaper than renting because right now in real terms it may be, however, any time you own a house you are taking a risk on what will break and it could be something significant. If you start having water problems in a basement before 5 years is up and you want to sell it? Have fun. You're either fixing it or sitting on it for a long time, or you're selling it for next to nothing because buyers will beat your ass up on the price. 
 
But if you're renting? You have 0 liability for stuff like that. All you need to do is not be a shitfuck and don't destroy the place you live at. 
 
It's about risk mitigation - if you are trying to achieve something that requires X number of dollars like start a particular business that has particular overhead costs or whatever, your best bet is to mitigate your risk of out-of-pocket expenses as much as possible. 
 
I started out with duplex with my wife and daughter, we lived there for 2 years. Then I bought a rehabber, lived in my in-laws' basement for 6 months while I went to my day job and then worked 6 days a week till 11 p.m. every night redoing 4 bathrooms, 2 kitchens, 1500 sq ft of hardwood floors, the list goes on. Then I moved in there for 2 years and it cost me 400 bucks a month to live there. I was able to sell that place for a significant profit. That place paid for the down payment on my business partner's single family home for himself, it paid for my absurd 15k engine build on my Acura TL, and eventually helped me get into the house i'm in now. Meanwhile I was looking for other duplexes. I found a place near Mt. Mary college that my partner and I bought. Looking hard at cost per unit - it was about 60k per unit for that duplex, and market rent is 750-800/mo per unit. 1 unit rented literally pays for everything at that point. The rest is just profit that all gets either repair escrow or goes to paying down the principal. 
 
all of these things have something in common which is mitigating cost by being patient for proper deals and understanding neighborhoods, cap rates, likely scenarios, etc. , and mitigating risk by never taking anything for ourselves. In 8 years all my cash flow from property has gone into principal or escrow for repairs. 
 
I pay my mortgage on my house that I live in now out of pocket because I have a wife and 2 young kids and we lived light for years and I shuffled them around and moved them from one place to the next 6 or 7 times probably in the past 7 years. Eventually there is an intangible benefit when you have a family to just stabilizing some things for them first, and then re-focusing on investments. But I still can't help but see myself as throwing money away at interest and risk of repairs here which will eat into my investing power. To me, I can't see it any other way - I hate the fact that I pay for my house out of my pocket and can't use other people's money to do that. i.e. profit from investments. But I made the decision to have a family and not sacrifice everything for the sake of just money. I acknowledge this and I never would criticize someone for going the route I did but I also will advise any early 20-something to be serious about what they want out of life and figure out how to get there, understand the roadblocks/events that can happen to slow that down, and understand what you are willing to live with and be happy with. 
 
For me, it all comes back to the OPM formula. Renting to people to have them pay your taxes, mortgages, interest, and repairs is a form of OPM , and the money to get the property they rent in the first place is from a bank of course which is OPM but again with cash flow from tenants, I'm insulated. So when I say buying a house in your 20's that you aren't using to either A) flip short term and can make actual money on, or rent out , is a bad idea, that's what I'm getting at. If you have 0 aspirations to do more with your life, fine do whatever you want and buy your house. If you have some amount of aspirations but obligations like family get in the way, then balance it at least and buy a cheaper starter home in a stable area. Exit strategy is everything. I never buy anything without an exit strategy. It either needs to be cheap enough under market value that I can sell it for what I paid for it even with my back against a wall or with minimal loss, or cash flow like a mofo so nobody can beat me up bad enough on price because I can always justify the cap rate, or it has to be in a neighborhood that has 1 in a million chance of going downhill (like the neighborhood I currently live in). Thirdly, if you have nothing but aspirations and 0 ties to anyone like kids or a wife, then don't a screwup - mitigate as much as you can.
 
Why? Time/value of money says so, that's why. Your time is cheap in your 20's, so every dollar you can push for yourself to get closer to your goals whatever they may be is amplified that much more because you have tons of time to fail fast and recover with your ideas and aspirations. 

it's all good Jake. 
 
Please note that when I say "you" as follows, it pertains to generically speaking anyone. It isn't directed at any individual. 
 
What I'm seeing here is common which is posturing of this attitude like "yeah I'm set, I got it bro. I'm so successful in my early 20's working for somebody else that they give me enough scraps off their plate that I can buy X". No, you aren't set. You've accomplished nothing. You make dogshit as far as real money is concerned, and it isn't enough to ever be independent. I hate seeing kids with a 2 in front of their age who think they've somehow "made it" with their little degree and their little job, or worse - still finishing school and trying to explain to the world that they have all this opportunity and things will be so grand and perfect. Yes, congrats, you've just become like millions of other people running the rat race. Giving people the rundown on how you've stood up a run-of-the-mill modern Western life isn't impressive.
 
Here's an idea: rather than talking about how little is owed on a car or house, or justifying expenses of cars, all based on some small income and this little box that 99% of 20-somethings fall into - instead talk about how you're going to start a business or invest in some way that will fund your car desires 1000x over down the road. So you have a house? Houses are money pits. They are not investments. Nice to have but quite possibly the WORST thing you can do in your early 20's is to buy a house that YOU pay for. I say YOU because if you rent it and someone else pays the interest and taxes and cash flows your escrow to repair stuff on it, then it's not the worst thing anymore.
 
Working hard is something to be proud of. Working hard for material things like cars and houses is stupid. Work hard to become smarter about how to have the experiences you as a person want out of life
 
Storytime:
I grew up playing soccer with a buddy who I still play with to this day. 20+ years. Really nice, unassuming guy. He was failing physics in high school so he started the physicsforums website as a place for people to answer questions, etc. He took that and ran with it, still went to UWM and got a comp sci degree just to have a fallback (positioning), but he's never worked for anyone beyond the age of 18. The forums took off and now he has the likes of Harvard professors contributing content. He has a 6 figure RESIDUAL income from the traffic and literally spent his entire 20's out of the USA for 9 months out of the year. Every year. all he did was travel the world and he still to this day at the age of 32 does not have to work for anyone and is currently spending summer in Tanzania and surrounding countries. 
 
THAT is success. It's not about having X number of dollars to buy a house or cars or whatever or being "rich" - it's about having the freedom to pursue what is important to you at your leisure, on your own clock, not having to answer to someone demanding you are 9-5 somewhere 5 days a week or whatever the case may be unless you truly want that structure in your life. He was smart about what he did, rather than just "work hard" to do the "yea i'm gonna go to college and get a job and ride that one out", and now he has infinitely more freedom to do what he wants with his life, not beholden to the whims of banks, employers, or any other form of debtor. 
 
I do very well for myself but usually all I can ever think about is how I'm going to get my next property in order to get to a point where someday I can say "I will do what I want on my own terms and I do not need this job". I really want to be able to coach soccer again, and I'd love to get enough track time where I can start instructing. I'd love to be able to travel as a software consultant maybe a couple months a year helping companies understand architecture that really want to learn and better themselves, rather than be tied to some elitist investment firm like I am now who favors politics over progress. I'd love to have time to help young entrepreneurs get started, even help bankroll them or fund ideas because I personally know how hard it is to get capital to pursue things like that. But I can't do any of those things right now because I wasn't smart until age 25 when I started getting properties for myself and doing web development outside of my day job because I knew I'd never even have a shot at some semblance of freedom otherwise. 13 years from now, when I'm 45, my goal is to be able to do all those things on my own terms. But I'm ok with that because I've defined the goal, the terms of it, what I want and how I will keep myself sane in the meantime *cough* with my modestly priced 135i *cough*. 
 
So when I see people just starting out, who have done nothing of any merit or value yet in the world, spouting off about these typical things around cars, houses, student loans, credit cards, whatever, yadda yadda modern Western society "success" criteria - all I can think about is this:
 
STOP. THINK.
 
You wanna work hard? Great. In your 20's when you have the time and energy to work that hard, at least put your efforts into working hard where a portion of that counts towards helping yourself in the long run. Whatever you give to an employer is making them 20x what they pay you. They bank on that. You're being utterly robbed. Don't get me wrong, I know the system needs millions of work-a-day rat race chumps who will never go anywhere in life, I get that. But at that point all your eggs are in one basket. There is an untold amount of opportunity available for people who want a less stressful life with more freedom to do the things they want if they are smart about it. Almost anybody with intelligence and skills can do something in addition to their regular job to help build themselves up a buffer and start separating themselves. 
 
Do something for yourself in order to insulate yourself from corporations and a world that in general doesn't give a damn about you. The sooner you understand that and work towards it, the sooner you can pursue passion around cars or whatever without caring about the financials. 
 
I know people who can literally write checks for over 100 million dollars. I'm not talking assets - I'm talking liquid cash available on-hand. And you know what? Those people who own big like that are always selling, liquidating, and moving on. That's opportunity for creative, smart people. There's plenty of ways you can be smarter where you "work hard" but you are not "working hard at a career job". and it doesn't even have to be real estate like what I am into. For example, I also am always checking out sites like Quiet Light Brokerage - they broker deals of sales of websites - everything from drop ship businesses to e-commerce to amazon re-sellers to you name it. These are things you can buy small or big, some even potentially grow and flip with some smart moves.
The bottom line is this: work "hard" but realize you need emphasis on being smart about what you're going hard at, and position yourself to react to the inevitable changes in your life. Nobody cares if you have cash to buy a car right now or how little you owe on your house because honestly that means nothing in the grand scheme of things. It seems big to you at a young age but there is a much broader stroke that everyone should keep in mind and the more money you blow on stupid shit at a young age, the less you are positioning yourself for the future.
 
again, let's not mix this up and make the mistake of boiling it down to having X number of dollars. Define what you want to do in your life, what you're passionate about, and then determine if you are happy giving that up to work for someone else for mediocre money that may get you a few nice-to-haves like a used BMW or a small house. Realize that every dollar you spend now moves you further away from your goal if you are blowing it on cars or anything like it.
 
Nobody here needs to agree with me, but in the past 8 years I've met a lot of people who are independently able to pursue what they want in life and they don't need to even talk about the costs of BMWs. I know how they did it, the underlying premise is all the same, and all I'm trying to do here is help add some perspective to people who are smart enough to realize that they have opportunity to not struggle as much. And for any of you to say you aren't struggling is a lie. If you don't believe me when I say that, then that means you don't grasp what I'm saying. Stop trying to justify to the world why you're doing what you're doing right now because of how awesome you think you've set yourself up. The unassuming millionaire in his 1988 Corolla doesn't care because he's going to spend the rest of the day on his boat staring at clouds contemplating the mysteries of the universe, without a care in the world. 

it's all good Jake. 
 
Please note that when I say "you" as follows, it pertains to generically speaking anyone. It isn't directed at any individual. 
 
What I'm seeing here is common which is posturing of this attitude like "yeah I'm set, I got it bro. I'm so successful in my early 20's working for somebody else that they give me enough scraps off their plate that I can buy X". No, you aren't set. You've accomplished nothing. You make dogshit as far as real money is concerned, and it isn't enough to ever be independent. I hate seeing kids with a 2 in front of their age who think they've somehow "made it" with their little degree and their little job, or worse - still finishing school and trying to explain to the world that they have all this opportunity and things will be so grand and perfect. Yes, congrats, you've just become like millions of other people running the rat race. Giving people the rundown on how you've stood up a run-of-the-mill modern Western life isn't impressive.
 
Here's an idea: rather than talking about how little is owed on a car or house, or justifying expenses of cars, all based on some small income and this little box that 99% of 20-somethings fall into - instead talk about how you're going to start a business or invest in some way that will fund your car desires 1000x over down the road. So you have a house? Houses are money pits. They are not investments. Nice to have but quite possibly the WORST thing you can do in your early 20's is to buy a house that YOU pay for. I say YOU because if you rent it and someone else pays the interest and taxes and cash flows your escrow to repair stuff on it, then it's not the worst thing anymore.
 
Working hard is something to be proud of. Working hard for material things like cars and houses is stupid. Work hard to become smarter about how to have the experiences you as a person want out of life
 
Storytime:
I grew up playing soccer with a buddy who I still play with to this day. 20+ years. Really nice, unassuming guy. He was failing physics in high school so he started the physicsforums website as a place for people to answer questions, etc. He took that and ran with it, still went to UWM and got a comp sci degree just to have a fallback (positioning), but he's never worked for anyone beyond the age of 18. The forums took off and now he has the likes of Harvard professors contributing content. He has a 6 figure RESIDUAL income from the traffic and literally spent his entire 20's out of the USA for 9 months out of the year. Every year. all he did was travel the world and he still to this day at the age of 32 does not have to work for anyone and is currently spending summer in Tanzania and surrounding countries. 
 
THAT is success. It's not about having X number of dollars to buy a house or cars or whatever or being "rich" - it's about having the freedom to pursue what is important to you at your leisure, on your own clock, not having to answer to someone demanding you are 9-5 somewhere 5 days a week or whatever the case may be unless you truly want that structure in your life. He was smart about what he did, rather than just "work hard" to do the "yea i'm gonna go to college and get a job and ride that one out", and now he has infinitely more freedom to do what he wants with his life, not beholden to the whims of banks, employers, or any other form of debtor. 
 
I do very well for myself but usually all I can ever think about is how I'm going to get my next property in order to get to a point where someday I can say "I will do what I want on my own terms and I do not need this job". I really want to be able to coach soccer again, and I'd love to get enough track time where I can start instructing. I'd love to be able to travel as a software consultant maybe a couple months a year helping companies understand architecture that really want to learn and better themselves, rather than be tied to some elitist investment firm like I am now who favors politics over progress. I'd love to have time to help young entrepreneurs get started, even help bankroll them or fund ideas because I personally know how hard it is to get capital to pursue things like that. But I can't do any of those things right now because I wasn't smart until age 25 when I started getting properties for myself and doing web development outside of my day job because I knew I'd never even have a shot at some semblance of freedom otherwise. 13 years from now, when I'm 45, my goal is to be able to do all those things on my own terms. But I'm ok with that because I've defined the goal, the terms of it, what I want and how I will keep myself sane in the meantime *cough* with my modestly priced 135i *cough*. 
 
So when I see people just starting out, who have done nothing of any merit or value yet in the world, spouting off about these typical things around cars, houses, student loans, credit cards, whatever, yadda yadda modern Western society "success" criteria - all I can think about is this:
 
STOP. THINK.
 
You wanna work hard? Great. In your 20's when you have the time and energy to work that hard, at least put your efforts into working hard where a portion of that counts towards helping yourself in the long run. Whatever you give to an employer is making them 20x what they pay you. They bank on that. You're being utterly robbed. Don't get me wrong, I know the system needs millions of work-a-day rat race chumps who will never go anywhere in life, I get that. But at that point all your eggs are in one basket. There is an untold amount of opportunity available for people who want a less stressful life with more freedom to do the things they want if they are smart about it. Almost anybody with intelligence and skills can do something in addition to their regular job to help build themselves up a buffer and start separating themselves. 
 
Do something for yourself in order to insulate yourself from corporations and a world that in general doesn't give a damn about you. The sooner you understand that and work towards it, the sooner you can pursue passion around cars or whatever without caring about the financials. 
 
I know people who can literally write checks for over 100 million dollars. I'm not talking assets - I'm talking liquid cash available on-hand. And you know what? Those people who own big like that are always selling, liquidating, and moving on. That's opportunity for creative, smart people. There's plenty of ways you can be smarter where you "work hard" but you are not "working hard at a career job". and it doesn't even have to be real estate like what I am into. For example, I also am always checking out sites like Quiet Light Brokerage - they broker deals of sales of websites - everything from drop ship businesses to e-commerce to amazon re-sellers to you name it. These are things you can buy small or big, some even potentially grow and flip with some smart moves.
The bottom line is this: work "hard" but realize you need emphasis on being smart about what you're going hard at, and position yourself to react to the inevitable changes in your life. Nobody cares if you have cash to buy a car right now or how little you owe on your house because honestly that means nothing in the grand scheme of things. It seems big to you at a young age but there is a much broader stroke that everyone should keep in mind and the more money you blow on stupid shit at a young age, the less you are positioning yourself for the future.
 
again, let's not mix this up and make the mistake of boiling it down to having X number of dollars. Define what you want to do in your life, what you're passionate about, and then determine if you are happy giving that up to work for someone else for mediocre money that may get you a few nice-to-haves like a used BMW or a small house. Realize that every dollar you spend now moves you further away from your goal if you are blowing it on cars or anything like it.
 
Nobody here needs to agree with me, but in the past 8 years I've met a lot of people who are independently able to pursue what they want in life and they don't need to even talk about the costs of BMWs. I know how they did it, the underlying premise is all the same, and all I'm trying to do here is help add some perspective to people who are smart enough to realize that they have opportunity to not struggle as much. And for any of you to say you aren't struggling is a lie. If you don't believe me when I say that, then that means you don't grasp what I'm saying. Stop trying to justify to the world why you're doing what you're doing right now because of how awesome you think you've set yourself up. The unassuming millionaire in his 1988 Corolla doesn't care because he's going to spend the rest of the day on his boat staring at clouds contemplating the mysteries of the universe, without a care in the world. 

I hope you know I was joking, I totally understand where you are coming from.  wife and I are going on 8 years of owning our own businesses, we are 35.  I differ slightly from you on the house owning thing, but that is a small detail.  Very good post.

Admin request - can we split all these into a new topic in the off topic forum for finances, or something?  Great conversation, and great advise/discussion could be had.
 
Thank you ILC for the great post.....as expected I am mortally offended, hahaha.

it's all good Jake. 
 
Please note that when I say "you" as follows, it pertains to generically speaking anyone. It isn't directed at any individual. 
 
What I'm seeing here is common which is posturing of this attitude like "yeah I'm set, I got it bro. I'm so successful in my early 20's working for somebody else that they give me enough scraps off their plate that I can buy X". No, you aren't set. You've accomplished nothing. You make dogshit as far as real money is concerned, and it isn't enough to ever be independent. I hate seeing kids with a 2 in front of their age who think they've somehow "made it" with their little degree and their little job, or worse - still finishing school and trying to explain to the world that they have all this opportunity and things will be so grand and perfect. Yes, congrats, you've just become like millions of other people running the rat race. Giving people the rundown on how you've stood up a run-of-the-mill modern Western life isn't impressive.
 
Here's an idea: rather than talking about how little is owed on a car or house, or justifying expenses of cars, all based on some small income and this little box that 99% of 20-somethings fall into - instead talk about how you're going to start a business or invest in some way that will fund your car desires 1000x over down the road. So you have a house? Houses are money pits. They are not investments. Nice to have but quite possibly the WORST thing you can do in your early 20's is to buy a house that YOU pay for. I say YOU because if you rent it and someone else pays the interest and taxes and cash flows your escrow to repair stuff on it, then it's not the worst thing anymore.
 
Working hard is something to be proud of. Working hard for material things like cars and houses is stupid. Work hard to become smarter about how to have the experiences you as a person want out of life
 
Storytime:
I grew up playing soccer with a buddy who I still play with to this day. 20+ years. Really nice, unassuming guy. He was failing physics in high school so he started the physicsforums website as a place for people to answer questions, etc. He took that and ran with it, still went to UWM and got a comp sci degree just to have a fallback (positioning), but he's never worked for anyone beyond the age of 18. The forums took off and now he has the likes of Harvard professors contributing content. He has a 6 figure RESIDUAL income from the traffic and literally spent his entire 20's out of the USA for 9 months out of the year. Every year. all he did was travel the world and he still to this day at the age of 32 does not have to work for anyone and is currently spending summer in Tanzania and surrounding countries. 
 
THAT is success. It's not about having X number of dollars to buy a house or cars or whatever or being "rich" - it's about having the freedom to pursue what is important to you at your leisure, on your own clock, not having to answer to someone demanding you are 9-5 somewhere 5 days a week or whatever the case may be unless you truly want that structure in your life. He was smart about what he did, rather than just "work hard" to do the "yea i'm gonna go to college and get a job and ride that one out", and now he has infinitely more freedom to do what he wants with his life, not beholden to the whims of banks, employers, or any other form of debtor. 
 
I do very well for myself but usually all I can ever think about is how I'm going to get my next property in order to get to a point where someday I can say "I will do what I want on my own terms and I do not need this job". I really want to be able to coach soccer again, and I'd love to get enough track time where I can start instructing. I'd love to be able to travel as a software consultant maybe a couple months a year helping companies understand architecture that really want to learn and better themselves, rather than be tied to some elitist investment firm like I am now who favors politics over progress. I'd love to have time to help young entrepreneurs get started, even help bankroll them or fund ideas because I personally know how hard it is to get capital to pursue things like that. But I can't do any of those things right now because I wasn't smart until age 25 when I started getting properties for myself and doing web development outside of my day job because I knew I'd never even have a shot at some semblance of freedom otherwise. 13 years from now, when I'm 45, my goal is to be able to do all those things on my own terms. But I'm ok with that because I've defined the goal, the terms of it, what I want and how I will keep myself sane in the meantime *cough* with my modestly priced 135i *cough*. 
 
So when I see people just starting out, who have done nothing of any merit or value yet in the world, spouting off about these typical things around cars, houses, student loans, credit cards, whatever, yadda yadda modern Western society "success" criteria - all I can think about is this:
 
STOP. THINK.
 
You wanna work hard? Great. In your 20's when you have the time and energy to work that hard, at least put your efforts into working hard where a portion of that counts towards helping yourself in the long run. Whatever you give to an employer is making them 20x what they pay you. They bank on that. You're being utterly robbed. Don't get me wrong, I know the system needs millions of work-a-day rat race chumps who will never go anywhere in life, I get that. But at that point all your eggs are in one basket. There is an untold amount of opportunity available for people who want a less stressful life with more freedom to do the things they want if they are smart about it. Almost anybody with intelligence and skills can do something in addition to their regular job to help build themselves up a buffer and start separating themselves. 
 
Do something for yourself in order to insulate yourself from corporations and a world that in general doesn't give a damn about you. The sooner you understand that and work towards it, the sooner you can pursue passion around cars or whatever without caring about the financials. 
 
I know people who can literally write checks for over 100 million dollars. I'm not talking assets - I'm talking liquid cash available on-hand. And you know what? Those people who own big like that are always selling, liquidating, and moving on. That's opportunity for creative, smart people. There's plenty of ways you can be smarter where you "work hard" but you are not "working hard at a career job". and it doesn't even have to be real estate like what I am into. For example, I also am always checking out sites like Quiet Light Brokerage - they broker deals of sales of websites - everything from drop ship businesses to e-commerce to amazon re-sellers to you name it. These are things you can buy small or big, some even potentially grow and flip with some smart moves.
The bottom line is this: work "hard" but realize you need emphasis on being smart about what you're going hard at, and position yourself to react to the inevitable changes in your life. Nobody cares if you have cash to buy a car right now or how little you owe on your house because honestly that means nothing in the grand scheme of things. It seems big to you at a young age but there is a much broader stroke that everyone should keep in mind and the more money you blow on stupid shit at a young age, the less you are positioning yourself for the future.
 
again, let's not mix this up and make the mistake of boiling it down to having X number of dollars. Define what you want to do in your life, what you're passionate about, and then determine if you are happy giving that up to work for someone else for mediocre money that may get you a few nice-to-haves like a used BMW or a small house. Realize that every dollar you spend now moves you further away from your goal if you are blowing it on cars or anything like it.
 
Nobody here needs to agree with me, but in the past 8 years I've met a lot of people who are independently able to pursue what they want in life and they don't need to even talk about the costs of BMWs. I know how they did it, the underlying premise is all the same, and all I'm trying to do here is help add some perspective to people who are smart enough to realize that they have opportunity to not struggle as much. And for any of you to say you aren't struggling is a lie. If you don't believe me when I say that, then that means you don't grasp what I'm saying. Stop trying to justify to the world why you're doing what you're doing right now because of how awesome you think you've set yourself up. The unassuming millionaire in his 1988 Corolla doesn't care because he's going to spend the rest of the day on his boat staring at clouds contemplating the mysteries of the universe, without a care in the world. 

there is so much fail here. 
 
I can't manage a response to this discussion without being insulting. 

Glad to see it's back on the ground and you're going through the gears. Interesting to see my build thread to be of use! The chatter is 'meh', but I have the same mentality about it.
Hope to see this car in person sometime. Love the color.

Wish you could've parked in Scooters, but great chatting with you for a bit.

chatting with wibimmers guys was the only reason that show was worthwhile at all to me. I probably won't go again next year. Too many VW bro-mobiles 

Meanwhile in Jordan's garage:

Great to see these "new" cars being worked on at home

I have never heard of this bread method.  Just watched a youtube video about it.  Holy crap... I can't believe that works!

BEEMO!!