wally509
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Posts posted by wally509
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On 5/2/2016 at 0:21 PM, Snap said:
Wally, I appreciate your insight and perspective, very valid points which I can agree with. The ride height thing is something I was not aware of and makes a lot of sense for the stock ride height of an e21. I hope the fact that some on here see the e21 as a dud doesn't anger you as much as it may seem like from reading your post. If I had a valve for everytime someone crapped on an M20, i'd have an M50 swap.
Snap,
I don't know for an absolute fact they were doing that on the US e21's. I do know there was such a requirement and other European manufacturers were raising ride height to meet the height. I also know there was an article in Bimmer Magazine about how to make your 320i handle, one of the mods was to use euro 323i springs and it was noted that lowered the ride height ~3/4" with a stiffer rate. The strut housings are different between the 320i and 323i, so take that FWIW.
Thanks,
Wally -
Sorry guys, that EXTRA LONG post wasn't intended to sound angry or be a flame of any sort. I'll try not to do that anymore.
I know where all that literature is and I'm going to go in the attic and dig it out the next time I'm there just because I'm curious myself now. I didn't keep it handy because I never in a million years ever thought the e21, given what I witnessed and participated in in period, would ever be looked down on in such a manner. It was just sort of a shock I guess. After reading that article, I did send it to a few of my friends who were also really into cars in the late 70's/early80's time period, some heavy into BMWs, others not. They all had the same thought I did, that guy is smoking crack and should have done a little more research on that period of time. But whatever, like I said earlier, it's a lost cause.
Snap, I believe that minimum height requirement went away in 1986, the same year the sealed beam headlights did IIRC and the mandatory high mount 3rd brake light came in.
I don't understand how the m20 could be crapped on being another terribly important piece of the BMW puzzle. I can remember when the e30 first came out with the M10, my parents neighbor bought one of the very first ones. I went for a ride and remember thinking "this thing isn't any faster than the 320i". This e30 thing is a COMPLETE DUD (LOL!). Actually, I thought the e30 was a much improved car in styling, finish, interior design and comfort/NVH (just like the e21 was over the '02 albeit not the styling leap the e21 was over the '02), you know, all the things important to an automotive design in addition to performance...then the m20 powered e30's came on line in the U.S. and filled in that last piece.
I_love_cars, thanks, it's obvious you've been around cars of that '80s era enough to understand that living in todays world of nearly perfect, infallible cars, looking back and judging one from the '80s...well you sorta had to be there or been surrounded by them as you did to be accurate in your judgments. Just wait, 20 years from now you'll be reading some article in a major auto magazine written by some guy not even born in 2011 saying the 135i was a turd. It will raise your blood pressure and you'll post up on a forum and a bunch of other people of similar age to the author will tell you the 135i was a flop because of it's mundane styling, etc.
Later guys,
Wally
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Hi guys, thanks for taking the time/effort to respond and not just having the mods ban the “crotchety middle aged guy” for voicing an unpopular opinion on the e21.
You guys are lucky to live in an age when cars consistently get faster, more efficient, better handling more reliable, etc. It wasn’t always like that. There was a period of time when emissions regulations were outpacing fuel control and catalyzing technologies and that happens to be the period of time being discussed. The corner really didn’t get turned on that one until the standards sort of leveled off and multi point fully computer controlled fuel injection (such as motronic) became commonplace. This was after the e21 was done. There were also goofy safety standards such as the “minimum bumper height requirement” which forced many of the European manufacturers to unwilling raise ride heights to somewhat amusing levels just to get the bumpers up to height so the cars could be sold in the U.S..
I realize convincing people the e21 was a worthy successor to the ’02 is a lost cause. It just irritates me that because TODAY people prefer the ’02, means BACK THEN the e21 was a “dud”. Quite to contrary is true, the e21 and the e28s were hits and excellent cars I might add…exactly, precisely what that company needed at that time to move it from that “niche” manufacturer teetering on bankruptcy once (or more) every ten years or so to a long term solvent major.
The significant preference of the ’02 over the e21 today is very easy to explain. The ’02 has “crossed the bridge” into old car status and old car=cool car for whatever reason(s). Proof? How many of those 9/10 people would take a roundie over a square light ’02? Old looking=cool, older looking=cooler. The e21 is stuck in that dissed / doldrums ‘80s malaise, by no real fault of it’s own.
“Sales figures mean nothing” – wow, not really sure where you’re going with that one. Automobiles are designed, engineered and manufactured for one reason and one reason only…to be sold. I think it’s interesting you bring up the Chrysler K car and what a horrible vehicle that was given it was named “car of the year” by the writers of the same magazine that started all this. Do you remember Lee Iacocca being on national TV thanking the U.S. taxpayers for that huge loan which they were only able to pay back because of profits of the…oh never mind.
“It wasn’t a developmental leap forward in any way” – again, wow, not really sure where you’re going with that one. I have a fair amount of technical literature from BMW, mostly what they sent after the purchase of the e21 but also some from when I worked for BMWNA as a technical rep for the regional auto shows that will contradict that. If I could find all that crap, which I know I still have somewhere, I could give you a list as long as your arm. Most of it being things you can’t really see, which is obviously part of the problem. But what difference would all that typing make? None…y’all are going to believe what you want to believe and just beat me down saying that’s all sales fluff. You can keep going back to performance, but in reality the difference was within the margin of error of the testing and I don’t think they ever made an ’02 that could meet the later crash and emissions standards the e21 could (and did) to do a real apples to apples comparison.
BMW was making huge leaps forward in exterior styling, interior styling (focusing on real ergonomics for the first time), reliability, manufacturing quality, fuel efficiency and safety in that time period and the e21 shared in a majority of those. I brought up “compared to other cars” and you came back with that wasn’t what the original article was about. Yes, I understand that, however it gives you (and should have given the MT author) a good indication of the design parameters auto manufacturers were required to work within in a given time period…those being forced on them by governmental regulations, technical/manufacturing limitations or economic conditions, etc. Given all they had to work with and within, the e21s and e28s were really kick ass cars. Other manufacturers scrambled to catch up.
As you probably can tell, I was really into BMWs in that time period. The lucky bastard that I am even got to go tour the factory and see the “tea cup” (which they apparently now refer to as the “salad bowl”) back in 1984. Owned e21s and e28s. I tuned out about the time of the e36, they had me and then they lost me. Now I am sort of coming back with an '82 e21 and an e92 daily driver.
Wally509, forum novelist...
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I never said he couldn't have an opinion on them because he (or anyone) wasn't born when a particular car was made, however, he didn't say "I personally don't like them because of X, Y, Z". He said the car was a bomb/dud. Well then why were there so many of them driving around in the late 1970's and early 1980's if they were so bad and they bombed? I will tell you there were significantly more of them driving around than '02s. So what car was better in that time frame? Chevrolet Citation? Audi Fox? Honda?
Okay, so it was heavier and slower than the 2002. How is that relevant to making a statement like the car/design being a dud/bomb? That was due to a variety of reasons, ALL cars were going in that direction due to emissions and safety regulations outpacing design and engineering. Americans were making 135 hp V8's!
He daily drives (I assume that's what "daily's" means) an e30 touring, I guess that gives him some credibility. It just would have been nice if he would have gone into some detail about why he thought the e21 was such a dud/bomb. Maybe pointing out what other late 1970's/early 1980's cars it was so far behind to give BMW this black eye. I can remember Ford running a TV ad in '82/'83 showing the Mustang GT beating the 320i and 944 0-60, but that's about it and 0-60 is really a one-trick-pony measure of a car.
Later,
Wally
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I unfortunately receive Motor Trend magazine. The latest edition has an article on the new M2, which I know some of you guys are interested in. Y'all can search for it should you be interested.
I decided not to create a log in on the Motor Trend site and receive enormous amounts of spam indefinitely so I figured I would post here and punish you guys instead regarding an inset of the M2 article entitled "The Dreaded Second Time Flubs: Looking Back on BMW Hits and Misses"
Link to it: http://www.motortrend.com/news/bmw-hits-and-misses-dreaded-second-time-flub/
As one would expect, the writer goes on about how great the 2002 and the e30 were and that the e21 "was a dud" with no metric as to how he was determining that. I realize as time goes on, the average "born on" dates for these automotive writers is going to continue to climb and first hand knowledge of previous models when current is going to fade away.
I don't understand why a writer for a major automotive magazine like this would even comment on something he clearly knows nothing about. Hey, I realize the guy can't print "I would comment on the 2002's and e21's, but can't seeing as I wasn't even born until 1980-whatever shouldn't..." but fer Christ's sake at least the guy could have spent a few minutes doing some research before going to print with what he did.
They sold 1.35 million e21's in 7 years, which is obviously way more than they sold of '02s, almost double on a units per year basis and actually very similar to the number of e30's on a per year basis. I don't understand how that would be considered a "flop".
I guess he could have been talking performance, but again, if that's the case he would again be showing his ignorance of the times. Styling maybe? Well there are both exterior as well as interior styling cues that first appeared on the e21 that are still found on BMW's today. My guess is he is basing his comment on current resale values and nothing else.
The guy is full of crap.
Thank you for enduring this post,
Wally
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1 hour ago, i_love_cars said:
omggggg +1 to infinity for taking a Ford Probe to the track. rofl that's so awesome
Well that's all I had at the time, so...
Going up that hill on the front straight was a lot like the elevator scene from Blues Brothers with the muzac playing. Plus those things twisted up pretty bad using dot track tires, surprised the doors never popped open going through some of those turns.
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22 hours ago, i_love_cars said:
Well this is pretty funny - @wally509 had a 93 Ford Probe GT and I thought I'd be the only one on this forum who could say that.
My first car was a '93 Probe GT with a manual gearbox. I have a pic of two on an old computer somewhere but as the story goes, it's how I learned to work on cars...
Actually I had two of them, '93 and a '95 now that I think of it. How sad is that?
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Given I am nearly 50 and had my license since 1984 this list is pretty long so I will omit some of the real turds:
- '74 Dodge Dart (first car, wrecked by one of my friends)
- '73(?) Beetle with the unfortunate semi-automatic transmission
- '83 Mk1 Rabbit GTI
- '78 (first gen) Rx-7
- '56 Austin Healey 100 (my Dad's car but I used it as a DD when home from MSOE in summers, he sold it circa 1988)
- '70 Opel GT
- '82 Mercedes 240D manual trans
- '83 e21 320i (gift from my parents after they used it for 8-9 years/200k miles. Drove for a while and sold to friend)
- '93 Mazda MX-6 LS (only new car I ever owned, would never do that again, traded for #10 before paid off)
- '83 Mercedes 300CDT
- '56 Austin Healey 100 (found my dad's old car in Iowa and bought it back! This was in 1994. Not a DD, still have this car)
- '93 Probe GT
- '94 Mercedes W124 Coupe
- '94 (third gen) Rx-7 (fastest car I ever owned, yes I totaled it unfortunately not doing anything "spectacular")
- '66 Ford Fairlane 500XL (not a DD, put $$ into a partial resto then almost immediately sold, that was stupid, eh?)
- '83 e21 320i (item #8 bought back from friend, drove for a while and sold to another friend who traded it in w/o giving me a chance to buy it. This was ~2001 w/~250k on)
- '86 Mustang SVO (used as a DD for a summer, then made into a track car when my parents gave me the '95 STS (#18))
- A couple of hand me down Caddies (actual Caddies, not VW rabbit pickups) a '95 STS and '01 STS
- '05 Jag S-Type
- '87 911 (not a DD, still have this car)
- '07 e92 328i in the traditional BMW flavor, n/a straight 6, manual trans, rear drive only. This is my current DD.
- '82 e21 320is (not a DD, still have this car, looks identical to #8/#16 same color, wheels, etc)
The one I wish I had back are #3, #5 (which I did actually get back), #6, then #8/#16 (which I sort of got back in #22).
If any of you made it this far, thanks for reading...
Wally
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10 hours ago, patsbimmer1 said:
I love BaT! Thats a great way to kill some time!
I hate BaT...and for the same reason
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Snap,
Thanks for posting this, cool stuff. Hope you don't think this is a hijack but check out what is on ebay right now:
Later,
Wally
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Flathead with Ardun OHV conversion.
Or...
A rover V8 in a 2002 or e21 would be neat.
Whoa! I was going to say that! Not about wasting a set of Ardun heads on a BMW but the Buick/Olds 215 Aluminum (which became the Rover engine). Back in the 80's we BS'd about sticking those engines in just about everything because of the low weight. Obviously it was all talk. Always thought one would be killer in a 914.
There is a guy in Madison that owns all the NOS Ardun heads in existence. Looking forward to seeing his collection sometime...
His name is Rich Munz. I believe he has 4 or 5 sets of original heads, not sure if any are NOS, pretty sure they are all built up engines. There was a set of the extremely rare V8-60 Ardun heads found NOS in the box 5 or so years ago, they sold for ~$35000 IIRC and pretty sure Mr. Munz did not buy them. Either way, his collection is quite awesome...as is his collection of British motorcycles.
I can't believe there is a discussion here on this forum about Arduns. Pretty damn cool!
Later,
Wally
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If this was a modern day concept it would probably go into production to compete against the slingshot. #takeoverallthemarkets
I wonder how this would be classified given it has four wheels. If it's a car and has to pass car safety standards then so much for that. Those Slingshots are a classification / licensing clusterf---. For example, they are a motorcycle in Wisconsin and require an "M" class license to drive, but in Illinois they are an "Autocycle" (whatever the hell that is) and can be driven on a regular car license. Then other states have a regular car license, a motorcycle license but then a separate class for three wheelers.
Sorry to get OT. I think it's kinda cool. I wonder what they used for the transmission/transaxle, it appears to have a regular shifting pattern and not the sequential bike trans. Since then they also came out with the S1000RR, which has about 2X the power of this "Flying Brick" engine.
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Don't care about the car so much but that seat material is AWESOME! GREEN!!
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The Jerks at The Werk Shop have an orange one listed in the back of SportsCarMarket for $499,000.
Just in case somebody here has half-a-million bucks burning a hole in their wallet.
edit: oops, they want $550,000 for it.
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Yeah, that Haggerty thing is pretty cool. Like any classic car evaluator, take it with a grain of salt. However, my general opinion is that they are closer than Keith Martin's value guides.
There's sort of a standing joke between me and one of my car buddies about these. Every time an M1 gets mentioned I kick into old man mode and say "oh man, I remember when you could buy these for a hundred grand..." and he would either jokingly flame up or just roll his eyes. Well this "joke" has been going on since some time in the 1990's. Having said all that, I would question this chart somewhat. It has been a LONG time since you could buy one for ~$100,000 as in a lot longer than since 2006 as it seems to indicate. Just my opinion but I have actually looked at the prices of them now and then over the last 20 years so...
Later,
Wally
p.s. I did send my buddy a link to the Haggerty chart, e-mail titled "oh man, I remember when..." so it will be interesting to see his response as the M1 topic hasn't been mentioned in many years at this point.
p.p.s. Cool car!
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I was at Autobahn yesterday. Is this the car we're talking about? It says "M235i" on the back, not "M2".
I didn't get the drive it, somebody already had it (and the M4) signed out yesterday.
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Well guys have been cooking out brakes at track days since the beginning of time so...
Not so sure solely blaming the weight of modern cars can be done here. Just my opinion. Flame on!
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that little car weighs 3450 lbs? What is this world coming to? Is anything even close to 3000 anymore?
Porsche Caymans are just a shade under and I would assume those Lotus mini-cars are also, everything else performance oriented is ~3500 these days.
Weights never go down with very few exceptions like the new mk(whatever they're up to now) VW GTI which went down a few hundred pounds.
That's the world we live in.
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yeah IMO it's a DIY job for most mechanically inclined people, at least on n54/n55 cars. The suspension configuration allows you to just unbolt the sway bar bushings and pull it down and rotate out of the way. IMO it is also best to disconnect the fan shroud and lift it a few inches up (no need to fully remove it) - it will give you a TON more space to work with when lining up the E12 for the top water pump bolt. The first time I swapped one of these was on Pat's car and it took 3 hours on the floor. Not a huge job.
I can tell you that my old 135i was under CPO when its water pump failed at 63k so I naturally had BMW replace it and the work sheet read just shy of 1500 for parts and labor, if that helps give you any idea of dealer cost.
Thanks for the tips. Do most guys change the thermostat also? If they aren't really prone to failure, not sure if I will mess with it.
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I have an '07 E92 328i with a little over 105K on it. I've owned it for about 2 years and got fairly complete service records when I bought it. No evidence there was ever a water pump done so that's been at the back of my mind ever since. Did you do the job yourself or take it somewhere? If you took it somewhere, may I ask what they hit you for to do it?
Thanks,
Wally
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I think I'm going to go to this.
That will make it an all car show weekend for me. There's a big Porsche show at Weathertech in Bollingbrook IL that Saturday which I'm taking the 911 to.
Wally
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Last night on my way home from work I saw an e30 coupe heading north on US45 from the stop sign at highway K near Bristol. Light gold metallic, lowered, larger wheels but overall pretty stock looking. It sounded like it had a V8 in it. I was on the bike with a helmet on so take that with a grain of salt. Anybody know this car?
Later,
Wally
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Very cool! Thanks for posting.
Drive Your Car.
in BMW Discussion
Posted
That was cool, really cool. Thanks for posting it.
I realize this is a BMW forum but...
Four or Five or so years ago I bought an air-cooled 911 with the intention of driving the piss out of it. I wanted to load my wife and kid, take only as much luggage as we could carry and road trip in it...things like take mostly backroads out to see my sister in Wyoming, maybe drive all the way down to the Florida keys in it and such.
Because I'm stretched too thin time and money wise, it took a couple years to get the car sorted for being ready to do these kind of things and not have issues. Not sure if you guys watch them but in that time, the car nearly doubled in value. Then suddenly I'm having these thoughts about not piling miles on it even though I SWORE TO MYSELF I was never again going to do this "saving it for the next guy" crapola.
Next thing I knew, 4-5 years have gone by and I hadn't really gone anywhere in this car.
Finally, two weeks ago I drove it out to watch the Pittsburgh Vintage Grand Prix. ~1200 mile round trip. It was quite awesome. I hadn't enjoyed driving that much in a long time. I could go on but will spare you. Life is too short to miss out on stuff like that, drive the damn cars.