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The current state of automobiles is no good (bring your emotional support Iguana)

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This is a thread that is going to get long, its going to get heated at times , opinions will differ, im going to be wrong, you're going to be wrong, and there is also a slim chance that it could generate some great conversation and that people will start to learn things about themselves (I can't guarantee this). 
 

Topics"
1) "New BMWs suck. My old M10/M20/M30/M42/M50/M52 etc. powerd BMW ran for 400k miles with only 3 oil changes, a spark plug, and 1 alternator belt replacement, now you can't even drive a new one 100k without some big issue....."         What, in your opinion, is the last BMW chassis or engine that you personally wouldn't hesitate owning to 200k or more.

2.) Is it harder to be a car enthusiast today than it was 10 or 20 years ago and why/why not?

3.) VW/Audi claims their next generation of IC engines will be their last. These will be rolled out in 2026. Are your jimmies rustled, or are you anxiously awaiting the electrification of vehicles.

4) Autonomous cars are scary because they will be hacked/what happens when a computer has to choose between a pedestrian vs its own occupants etc.   vs.     Human-driven cars are scary because humans are idiots.  vs. I will NEVER stop driving my own car ("from my cold dead hands!!")

5) Cars, in general, are way too expensive

 

ready set and go!

 

 

 

 

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1.e46. and never anything over 6 cylinders.

2.no. its easier! you can still buy the great old cars, and the internet knowledge-base is a godsend.

3.can we trust/believe anything VW has to say anymore?  i think the at some point we will realize the net gain on the environment for electronic cars is slim to none and IC will live on.

4.i find live updates for Teslas f*in terrifying. "cold dead hands" applies for me.

5.cars arent expensive. our expectation of what 'stuff' we deserve in life is too high.

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1 hour ago, suspenceful said:

1) As one of the few "modern" BMW owners/enthusiasts on this forum, my N54 seems more reliable than any "M10/M20/M30/M42/M50/M52 etc. powered BMW" on this forum. It seems that everyone with an E30 is constantly fixing it or trying to get it running again for the next meet.

:lol:

Didnt you kill an n54 already? 

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1) Definitely E46. I mean sure if an S65 lasts to 200k great, but I wouldn't put money on those odds. I'm fully expecting to replace an engine in my E92. I'm ok with that, but for sure if the question is about "not hesitating to own to 200k" then e46 is the newest I would have faith in. I don't see many people getting to 200k on N5x platforms either. Talk to any shop like a Kummrow that does a lot of bmw stuff and they will tell you the most common engine failures they see right now are N5x and that is largely because we are at the 10 year mark where mileage starts to matter and it's harder for these cars that typically have the shit kicked out of them with turbskis to last for 200k. 

2.) In some ways it is way easier because of the internet. You have YouTard videos and forums galore for not only information on what you care about but in general you can find content on basically any vehicle out there, at any level of modification or rarity. The flip side is that in terms of community, you have the rise of WCEC which seems that for every non-shitfuck there are 20 actual shitfucks. Also there are too many people doing video content that don't know what they are talking about. There is plenty of misinformation out there and unfortunately this is a downside - people who want valid info have to be really aware to sort out the bad advice or wrong technical data. 

3.) My jimmies are very rustled because I don't believe that driving should be a clinical experience. This is why I don't like vehicles like the GT-R. Unfortunately the electrification of cars and reduction of moving parts gets driving on the path of appliance instead of experience or skill. From a daily commute standpoint, I get it, and if there were still a segment still producing IC engines I would be ok. What sucks in my mind is that all manufacturers will eventually be producing exclusively electrics. I love older cars too but I also don't want to drive the same car for 40 years trying to keep it going just to hang on to an IC vehicle. For enthusiasts and racing applications it's going to suck because all a performance car will be is "faster than the other electric cars" but not offer any difference in experience. In my opinion regulations are driving things towards too much normalization and will only incense competition between manufacturers for the wrong priorities to a driving enthusiast. 

4) Autonomous cars are not a concern. Not only do you have the fact that in very recent time, autonomous tests in public have resulted in bad crashes, but critical things like ability to drive in rain/snow hasn't been addressed yet. There is a laundry list of things that make autonomous cars a pipe dream for those thinking it will be a utopia of no one ever driving on the road. This is decades away at best from being any sort of norm. 

5) Cars are absolutely expensive. Dan isn't wrong about people's sense of entitlement, but I don't think people should have to be forced to drive a 20 year old vehicle. That's a little extreme. Credit and stretching payments over 84 months and beyond is a problem, regulations impose costs on car development and production that sends prices up, and numerous other factors play into costs of cars but bottom line is a new Civic (non Type-R) can easily break 30k which is insanity. Look at it this way - in 2007 I bought a brand new loaded Civic for 17k. In 2018 11 years later that same car is 30k. But if we go backwards in time to 1994 when my parents bought a Corolla for 13k, not only is that a longer timespan at 13 years prior compared to 11 years later, but the cost for an econobox car rose basically a few thousand dollars between 1994 and 2007, yet it basically fucking doubled between 2007 and 2018. It's fucking stupid how much cars cost now. This isn't helping the used market either. It just drives demand up for cheaper used cars which pushes the price up of those used cars due to simple economics. 

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1) M42 close to 300k (odometer broken in 2012 at 235k and new gears didn't fix it), m20 still racing at 190k, M54 ZHP bought with 154k...hoping for longevity

2.) I became a car enthusiast as a kid in the mid-1960s, still am one so there's hope. Cars of interest just change 

3.) It's VW/Audi, they'll be under indictment for something...no worries

4) Cold dead hands. Prefer not becoming cold/dead by either autonomous cars or idiot drivers.

5) The wild card is what is "too expensive"?  Not worth it or can't afford it. Depending on what I'm looking at the answer and reasons vary.

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1) I Dont have much data, but E60 N52 doesnt seems too frightening which would also include the 2007 E90 330i

2) @i_love_cars incredibly good point about the internet making things easier for car enthusiasts today. Did not even think about that. I remember back in 1997 going to the city library to see if they had a Chilton manual for a Mazda 626 because my dad was attempting to tackle a broken timing belt repair (non interference)

.... to be continued

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1)  I sort of decided that after an N52 powered car, I was giving up on BMWs.  I don't want to mess with turbo and direct injection.  Part of why I am looking at a 2011 f10 528i.  Of course I said I was giving up on BMW forever when the e36 came out (whenever that was) because at the time I thought it looked like BMW was going to be building Hondas from here on out.
And here I am with an e92 and looking at...

2) Right now I think it's easier because just about everything has a turbo on it.  Crank up the boost and bolt on a bunch of junk and you're flying. 20-30 years ago you had to do some serious and extremely expensive engine internals to do what a computer chip can do now.  Not sure if that's what's meant by being an "enthusiast".  If you're talking enthusiast in the traditional sense, it's way easier now with the internet.  ~30 years ago you had to join a marque club and if you wanted to actually converse with anyone, you had to go to a once a month meeting and then you'd only talk with the guys who were the type that went to meetings and were local to your area.  The rest would come from the club's usually crappy once a month (or worse) magazine.  Now you just jump on a forum and can interact with hundreds or thousands pretty much immediately.

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I'm just going to say that I hate how much automakers change designs now. They are constantly redesigning front and rear ends of cars literally yearly. I hate that shit. Seems like every day I see another car that has been completely face-lifted after just a year (not just slightly updated)

I know that it's good for business, I just hate thats how it is. New stuff doesn't satisfy anyone for more then a year now.. They change car designs like iPhones

Heres a quick example that comes to mind because I work with Elantras so much

2016

download (1).jpeg

2017

download (2).jpeg

2019

download (3).jpeg

Lets compare 80s/90s bmw now

1984 3-series

red-1984-BMW-3-series-front-side.jpg

1992 3-series

red-1984-BMW-3-series-front-side.jpg

I know that the e30, e36, e34, e39 etc. received several small design changes over the years, but not complete front/rear end overhauls yearly.  

 

 

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All of the American marques used to facelift/redesign their cars yearly up until the late 70s/early 80s. If anything, this is a return to normal.

1)  See #5. Not too concerned about long-term reliability, because I can do my own repairs. If your M10/M20/M30/M42/M50/M52 grenades it's self, you just buy another one for a few hundred bucks and drop it in. I think in 20 years the situation will be similar with today's cars.

2)  About the same IMO. The internet is great for connecting with other enthusiasts, buying and selling, looking stuff up. Also great for connecting with deadbeats, spreading misinformation, and making you feel bad about your sub-500hp build. Cars have been getting more complicated and integrating more technology since before most of us were even born, and "enthusiasts" have been complaining about it just as long. People are still modifying their cars...

3)  Fossil fuels are a non-renewable resource. Repeat. Fossil fuels are a non-renewable resource. Internal combustion engines are also really inefficient at turning chemical energy into mechanical energy. Huge amounts of waste heat is generated and simply vented to the atmosphere. Not much of a choice here.

4)  I don't know much about autonomous cars, but I wouldn't mind being able to get around on a daily basis without having to drive. 99% of the roads I drive on a daily basis are boring city streets and interstates that I've driven hundreds of times. On the other hand, I like to drive. Even if autonomous cars become a real thing, I will still own a car and drive it, just not as often. If I had to choose one, it would be driving.

5)  Maybe new cars are. I don't want to spend over $10k on car, so I don't really pay any attention to what's available beyond that price. I don't make that much money, but I have a daily and a project car and I'm fairly satisfied with both of them. If you're someone who's obsessed with whatever the best new thing is, you'll never be satisfied with what you have. I'm sure if I had more money, I'd drive better cars, but I don't know that I'd be any happier or better off because of it.

 

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32 minutes ago, HipMF said:

All of the American marques used to facelift/redesign their cars yearly up until the late 70s/early 80s. If anything, this is a return to normal.

 

 

TIL

I'm only 21 😓

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55 minutes ago, ChrisO said:

TIL

I'm only 21 😓

Damn kids!

Kidding. It's all about changing the the style of what looks "new" faster so that cars that are still relatively new start to look old and out-dated faster.

From the 'pedia of wikis:

Planned obsolescence, or built-in obsolescence, in industrial design and economics is a policy of planning or designing a product with an artificially limited useful life, so it will become obsolete (that is, unfashionable or no longer functional) after a certain period of time.[1] The rationale behind the strategy is to generate long-term sales volume by reducing the time between repeat purchases (referred to as "shortening the replacement cycle").[2]

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On 12/7/2018 at 3:01 PM, suspenceful said:

1) As one of the few "modern" BMW owners/enthusiasts on this forum, my N54 seems more reliable than any "M10/M20/M30/M42/M50/M52 etc. powered BMW" on this forum. It seems that everyone with an E30 is constantly fixing it or trying to get it running again for the next meet.

:lol:

Keep in mind that some of the older cars here are still using their original engine ;)

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On 12/7/2018 at 2:55 PM, snap said:

1) "New BMWs suck. My old M10/M20/M30/M42/M50/M52 etc. powerd BMW ran for 400k miles with only 3 oil changes, a spark plug, and 1 alternator belt replacement, now you can't even drive a new one 100k without some big issue....."         What, in your opinion, is the last BMW chassis or engine that you personally wouldn't hesitate owning to 200k or more.

I think the E90 is pressing where I feel normal, but that may simply because that's the newest chassis I've dealt with. I do know that newer stuff requires more software to be able to work on. The bolts and clips are all still about the same.

2.) Is it harder to be a car enthusiast today than it was 10 or 20 years ago and why/why not?

Not at all, if anything it's easier! There are so many forums and other quick resources that you have access to. You can find pretty much any info in a matter of minutes.

3.) VW/Audi claims their next generation of IC engines will be their last. These will be rolled out in 2026. Are your jimmies rustled, or are you anxiously awaiting the electrification of vehicles.

I think electric is cool. Have I personally driven one? Nah, but I would like to. I do think the lack of easy modifications and cool noises will be sad though.

4) Autonomous cars are scary because they will be hacked/what happens when a computer has to choose between a pedestrian vs its own occupants etc.   vs.     Human-driven cars are scary because humans are idiots.  vs. I will NEVER stop driving my own car ("from my cold dead hands!!")

Autonomy is scary because you are leaving the critical decisions in the hands of the software. The software will choose the least number of people to harm, and that may be you and you have no control over that. I think the overall benefits are massive, but for those benefits to be possible we largely need to eliminate the human involvement in all vehicles and that I'm not a huge fan of. 
 

5) Cars, in general, are way too expensive

New cars or old cars? 
New cars are getting increasingly more expensive largely in part to what I would assume is the ever increasing amount of standard equipment required in new vehicles. Things like airbags, TPMS, Reverse cameras, increasingly complicated emissions systems, and many non required safety options (lane departure, blindspot monitors, adaptive cruise). 

 

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14 hours ago, HipMF said:

...

3)  Fossil fuels are a non-renewable resource. Repeat. Fossil fuels are a non-renewable resource...Not much of a choice here.

...

Not disagreeing with you but I'm a sarcastic smart-ass and can't help myself...not sure if it warranted a "repeat" because I don't think it's really relevant to this discussion.  If VW/Audi said they were phasing out IC engines in 2226, then maybe.  The ability to extract it from the ground and/or refine it into something burnable by the current form of internal combustion engines being (effectively) legislated out of existence is, however, a definite concern as that can happen at just about any time in the future.

So we're all going to drive electric cars, and that electricity will be generated by burning coal.  Sounds like a plan...

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On 12/7/2018 at 4:08 PM, Earl said:

Didnt you kill an n54 already? 

Sure did! But I don't think it's an apples-to-apples comparison to cars on this forum. I don't consider reliability to be expected on a stock motor 700whp/wtq car.

14 hours ago, GunMetalGrey said:

Keep in mind that some of the older cars here are still using their original engine ;)

Now I'm actually curious how many of the E30's on this forum haven't done a motor swap. Roll call?

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1 hour ago, suspenceful said:

Now I'm actually curious how many of the E30's on this forum haven't done a motor swap. Roll call?

The only engine swaps I have done were pulling out running engines for better running engines.

My e36 has 295k on the original M50. 

I have overhauled an M20 that had an unknown mileage over 280k and the crank and pistons were all still in spec, it just needed a light honing and new rings (I did install a re manufactured head because the original was cracked.)

They don't break unless they are horribly neglected.  Most of the swaps are either an M20 ETA to I swap.  Or of course the M20 to or M/S50/2.  Or the e36 game of M50/2 swap to S50/2.

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I have a love / hate relationship for new cars. I get it, I understand why, but I also am nostalgic. Everything has its place, and I look at it from a more "fits the criteria" perspective. The modern car makes sense from the typical modern owner. Its very similar to owning a condo vs. a house. 

If you enjoy working on your own car, older cars tend to fit the bill more often due to cost and complexity. 

Think of it this way too, a lot of us daily a more "modern" BMW than the one we work on. Why is that? 

Enthusiast will always be enthusiast. It goes far beyond the date, tech, fuel as we all have our preferences to "fit the criteria". I believe its more of the emotional experience that makes the enthusiast exist. 

The current state of the automobile will always evolve, and I never look at this as a bad thing. With that evolution always comes new experiences and more knowledge. 

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6 hours ago, Jdesign said:

I have a love / hate relationship for new cars. I get it, I understand why, but I also am nostalgic. Everything has its place, and I look at it from a more "fits the criteria" perspective. The modern car makes sense from the typical modern owner. Its very similar to owning a condo vs. a house. 

If you enjoy working on your own car, older cars tend to fit the bill more often due to cost and complexity. 

Think of it this way too, a lot of us daily a more "modern" BMW than the one we work on. Why is that? 

Enthusiast will always be enthusiast. It goes far beyond the date, tech, fuel as we all have our preferences to "fit the criteria". I believe its more of the emotional experience that makes the enthusiast exist. 

The current state of the automobile will always evolve, and I never look at this as a bad thing. With that evolution always comes new experiences and more knowledge. 

emotion is a pretty key concept here. At the end of the day, the people who love something are always going to care more and be opinionated about it. So those of us who truly love cars are attached to the concept of what we love. 

I enjoy driving my E46 more than my E92, but I daily something from 2018. Pretty much in line with what you're saying. We all want to drive the older stuff but many people aren't dailying those things. I also think not having something like an older M3 as a daily, and instead as a weekend car, makes it more special. Same way that bringing a car out of storage feels in spring time. People can say whatever they want - the fact is everyone becomes numb to a certain degree to their routine. Cars are no different - if you drive a classic BMW every day, it doesn't feel as special. Intellectually you know what you're driving all the time, and as an enthusiast you are like "cool" and have some level of appreciation but it's not quite the same as leaving your modern daily for something special to you at the end of the week, or whatever.

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Up until a few weeks ago my newest car I had ever bought was a 96. I still don't want to even daily something newer than 2000 lol. I'm just weird and really prefer older vehicles for fun cars and daily duties. Maybe as I get older I will change my tune and be accepting of an automatic newer car. At this point I still will not own an automatic car for any purpose. 

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I thought for sure id be 55 or older before I wanted a soft ride, low end power, spacious interior, taller ride height, easy to enter/exit, quiet etc.

but holy crap, it has hit in my early 30’s 

I now completely understand why floaty 70-series sidewall Cadillacs exist. 

But again, its about contrast. Too much of a soft cushy thing makes you yearn for the opposite thing

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15 minutes ago, Earl said:

Up until a few weeks ago my newest car I had ever bought was a 96. I still don't want to even daily something newer than 2000 lol. I'm just weird and really prefer older vehicles for fun cars and daily duties. Maybe as I get older I will change my tune and be accepting of an automatic newer car. At this point I still will not own an automatic car for any purpose. 

 

If you ever procreate, safety ratings suddenly become more important. I dont want my family driving around in something that doesnt have side impact airbags. They make a hell of a difference. I never thought id become this guy. Its frightening

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