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SteelBlue

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On 9/22/2018 at 6:44 PM, SteelBlue said:

Also, when installing the starter, is there any lining up of the teeth that needs to be done? It seemed to go in rather easy. I bought the S52 flywheel/clutch kit and it looked like the flywheel was about as big as it could be in the bell housing. Just really don't want to get the motor in and then find out the starter won't engage.

Starter will just slip in, the gear extends out when the starter is engaged. 
Ensure the starter you are using came from something with the same size flywheel as what you are using. So if the starter was from the s52 manual (240mm clutch) and you put a clutch on for a late model 328 or M3 you're good to go!

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3 hours ago, GunMetalGrey said:

Starter will just slip in, the gear extends out when the starter is engaged. 
Ensure the starter you are using came from something with the same size flywheel as what you are using. So if the starter was from the s52 manual (240mm clutch) and you put a clutch on for a late model 328 or M3 you're good to go!

I'll have to double check, but the clutch kit I bought was for an E36 M3.

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37 minutes ago, suspenceful said:

Would it be advisable to install the headers before putting the motor in? I know it's a huge benefit doing it that way on an N54...

 

19 minutes ago, jc43089 said:

I would highly recommend putting the exhaust manifolds or headers on before putting the engine in.

Also this if you hadn't planned on it.
You have to get the sway bar out and the control arm bushings unbolted if you want to put the headers on with the motor in the car, and I can't come up with a scenario where that is more convenient.

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54 minutes ago, suspenceful said:

Would it be advisable to install the headers before putting the motor in? I know it's a huge benefit doing it that way on an N54...

 

36 minutes ago, jc43089 said:

I would highly recommend putting the exhaust manifolds or headers on before putting the engine in.

 

15 minutes ago, GunMetalGrey said:

 

Also this if you hadn't planned on it.
You have to get the sway bar out and the control arm bushings unbolted if you want to put the headers on with the motor in the car, and I can't come up with a scenario where that is more convenient.

Headers are on the motor. I installed them before I put the trans on because I wanted to test fit the motor in the engine bay to test for exhaust clearance.

Grabbing the trans brace from @AsparagusMike tomorrow and then I am going to work on getting it into the car.

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24 valve guys here, should I stay OBD2 or convert to OBD1?

OBD2 pros:

Already have the harness, sensors, everything etc.

Better diagnosing abilities?

OBD2 cons:

Seemingly more complicated for the vast variety of things.

Need to run a separate fuel pressure regulator

No one local knows about OBD2 swaps

Motor harness is old, greasy, and kind of torn and beat up in places

OBD1 pros:

Theoretically more simple? FPR built into fuel rail

M50 manifold. I have this piece already.

I have the red label 413 DME I believe that works with this setup plus a chip? Potentially misunderstood from conversation with @AsparagusMike

LOCAL SUPPORT, this is big because I am a moron.

OBD1 cons:

I have to buy a new harness, sensors, fuel rail, and other things I might be unaware of/need to research?

Would need to run catch can(or just burn a ton of oil)

Harder to diagnose things(purely anecdotal based on reading other forum posts)

 

I think I am past naively believing this car will still run this season. I mean it could and I would love for it to, but I'm getting to the point where I need to make a decision on the above situation. Motor is ready to go in, so the wiring harness would be the next step in this process.

Need some opinions.

 

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OBD2.  The diagnosis is so much better and the tuning is available if you ever need that.  OBD1 is old stuff, it is harder to diagnose and has less fault detection.  With OBD2 things can be coded out like the SAP pump etc.  I think the best is OBD2 with an OBD1 intake manifold.  Especially if you have all of the OBD2 sensors and harness already.

I have 2 OBD1 M50 engines and I will be the first to say that saying OBD1 is simpler and better is on par with someone saying carburetors are simpler and better.  When in reality jetting carbs and changing things is not simple at all, and the driveablity is not nearly as good.  For example to start my LandCruiser (factory carbureted setup) You have to pull the choke knob out, pump the gas 3-5 times depending on ambient temperature.  Then start it.  It needs at least 30 seconds of warming up to run properly.  OBD1 M50 engines have goofy quirks too like don't make the mistake of starting it and moving 10 feet and shutting it off that quickly, next time it will crank forever to get started again.

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Seems slightly dubious, maybe I can learn something here as well...

11 hours ago, jc43089 said:

With OBD2 things can be coded out like the SAP pump etc.

With ODB1 there is no SAP or EWS, and therefore nothing needs to be done to make it work. Obviously, if you make changes to the engine that require tuning changes, you need to update the tune, regardless of which system you use.

11 hours ago, jc43089 said:

saying OBD1 is simpler and better is on par with someone saying carburetors are simpler and better.

sort of... Maybe I'm mistaken, but I was under the impression that all OBD2 cars have EWS, and therefore require that some magic is done with the ECU in order to get it to run, whereas OBD1 is plug-and-play.

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10 hours ago, HipMF said:

Seems slightly dubious, maybe I can learn something here as well...

With ODB1 there is no SAP or EWS, and therefore nothing needs to be done to make it work. Obviously, if you make changes to the engine that require tuning changes, you need to update the tune, regardless of which system you use.

sort of... Maybe I'm mistaken, but I was under the impression that all OBD2 cars have EWS, and therefore require that some magic is done with the ECU in order to get it to run, whereas OBD1 is plug-and-play.

Here is some excellent information about how the system works.  Read the PDF that he links to.  https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?1499812-The-OFFICIAL-EWS-I-EWS-II-delete-bypass-and-information-thread!

 

The EWS II bypass is just a matter of:

Sending your ECU to have it programmed out.  Cost $109 (you could also pay more for other tuning options all at the same time).  https://www.kasselperformance.com/product/bmw-e36e39-m52-2-8l-ms41-1-tuning/

Installing the original parts, chip key, transponder ring, key under the dash somewhere so when it attempts to look for the key it is successfully found.  Cost varies depending on how many of the parts you already have.

If you collect all of the EWS parts from various cars that is ok too and you can realign the EWS module to the DME yourself.

 

Personally I would pay to have EWS and SAP deleted and plug it in and go.  It's not that scary.  The reason it can't be hardwired out of the system is that the DME and EWS module communicate digitally not with a simple high low signal.

 

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I've got parts to support either option, but classically have always done OBD1 stuff.
I can see some benefit to keeping it OBD2, but can also see the convenience of going OBD1 for simplicity. 

Basically I have nothing to contribute here. 

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What I am getting at is that it isn't simpler, diagnostics is a pain in the butt with OBD1.  For example, if I let my car idle after about a minute of not touching the throttle it will throw a code for TPS problem, measure it with a multimeter and it operates properly with one circuit rising and one falling.  No diagnostics beyond "TPS problem" however with OBD2 live data (which doesn't need a vintage computer with a serial port) you have access to much more information.

Unless you have a vintage laptop with serial port and an ADS interface to see data from the Bosch ECU.  

Sophistication is higher with the newer ECU as well.  Motronic 3.3.1 (OBD1 vanos ECU) has 12x12 (144) ignition and fuel tables.  MS41.1 (M52B28 ecu) has 12x16 (192) tables meaning more resolution.

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It’s in

F1AF02C0-7094-4790-BB4B-02AE7245A823.jpeg

kind of...

Looks like I am having the same problem as @m42b32

The drive side motor mount is not making life easy. I am using the condor speed 24v swap motor mounts. The passenger side goes in, but when I go to let the motor down to get the driver side one on. It’s really difficult to begin and then when I am able to get it on it’s not sitting correct. It’s like the arm is too long. The mounts are in the correct orientation(ask me how I know) but it’s pinching on the side of the mount. Please reference my poorly drawn diagram below.

2B8368EC-2738-41EE-B366-74F47A70AFB2.jpeg

If I try to tighten the nut on top to “suck down” the mount, it will pull the motor mount off the surface of the subframe and sit unevenly there.

I’m really not sure what needs to be adjusted to make this work. Could the subframe location have possibly moved from being in a front end collision? Didn’t @YoungCR have an M50 in this? Not sure if the motor mount arms are the same for M5X and S5X.

I’ll try to grab some pictures tonight. Need to get the motor in before I can worry about the OBD2 vs 1 issues.

Sigh..

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2 minutes ago, Jdesign said:

Sounds dumb but, have you tried jacking up the trans to get the motor to sit level?

I don't know if the issue is the motor being level longitudinally more so as the motor needs to rotate clockwise.

But I can try this as well. Never done before, not sure how much of a fight this process is supposed to be. 

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59 minutes ago, GunMetalGrey said:

^it sounds like you have some weird stuff going on with your setup.
I've had many an OBD1 (swapped or original) M5x/S5x and haven't dealt with most of the things that you are mentioning. 

I'm not saying the OBD1 setup is bad, but if he already has the OBD2 hardware it would be dumb to spend more money on something that in the end isn't as good.

Mine does have a Dinan BBTB so that might be part of the problem ;)

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1 hour ago, SteelBlue said:

Looks like I am having the same problem as @m42b32

The drive side motor mount is not making life easy. I am using the condor speed 24v swap motor mounts. The passenger side goes in, but when I go to let the motor down to get the driver side one on. It’s really difficult to begin and then when I am able to get it on it’s not sitting correct. It’s like the arm is too long. The mounts are in the correct orientation(ask me how I know) but it’s pinching on the side of the mount. Please reference my poorly drawn diagram below.

2B8368EC-2738-41EE-B366-74F47A70AFB2.jpeg

I mentioned it in my reply on my thread but for continuity, I am having the exact same issue but with the passenger side sitting crooked. I mentioned there how I snugged it down, maybe we could reach out to condor and see what they say? 

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Are you guys putting the mounts on the subframe first? It sounds like you're able to make them get on both studs though so I guess it isn't too relevant. 
Make sure the motor in straight in the chassis and twist em around a bit. 
Are they side specific? 
Are they in the right holes in the subframe?
Are trix only for kids? 

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14 minutes ago, m42b32 said:

I mentioned it in my reply on my thread but for continuity, I am having the exact same issue but with the passenger side sitting crooked. I mentioned there how I snugged it down, maybe we could reach out to condor and see what they say? 

I just called them. They said that each case can be slightly different given possible tweaks in the sub frame over the years. They said that they should be attached to the motor mount arms loosely, when the studs go through the sub frame, then the trans should be mounted finger tight to ensure its lined up. Then go back and tighten everything evenly. 

I guess I'll have to try again and see if I get any different results. They said 10-12 ft lbs for torque specs.

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3 minutes ago, GunMetalGrey said:

Are you guys putting the mounts on the subframe first? It sounds like you're able to make them get on both studs though so I guess it isn't too relevant. 
Make sure the motor in straight in the chassis and twist em around a bit. 
Are they side specific? 
Are they in the right holes in the subframe?
Are trix only for kids? 

I was told that it's easier for them to be on the arm and then into the sub frame. I tried both ways and neither was really better than the other.

I compared the two as this was also my inclination that they were side specific, they look the same size.

I originally had them backwards. Stud in slot, nub in hole. Realized this was backwards when I looked at some pictures. It hasn't really made a difference.

No they are not, F what you heard

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3 minutes ago, SteelBlue said:

They said 10-12 ft lbs for torque specs.

That ain't right, unless they're concerned about bolt/stud pull through on the mount. 
Those studs are at minimum M8 (13mm wrench) and that yields a 22 or 30 ft lb torque spec (8.8 vs 10.8)

Edit: This is no way helps you figure out how they align properly.

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Just now, GunMetalGrey said:

That ain't right, unless they're concerned about bolt/stud pull through on the mount. 
Those studs are at minimum M8 (13mm wrench) and that yields a 22 or 30 ft lb torque spec (8.8 vs 10.8)

They are 17mm

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1 minute ago, SteelBlue said:

They are 17mm

We are true keyboard warriors today.

Torque spec on that (proper to the thread) would be 70 ft lb+, so I would just snug em up real nice like by hand and call it a day. 
Especially if a lock nut or lock washer is involved. 

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