patsbimmer1 Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 did you miss the part where I said they've never had a "MASS-PRODUCTION" purpose-built track car? You are going to tell me those examples you just gave were/are going to be mass-produced as the de-facto standard? The M3 is the defacto standard, and that has never been sold, advertised, or reviewed as anything other than the perfectly balanced performance machine, with an edge leaning towards track-inspired driving dynamics. Not the M4 GTS, not the M1, and not any e30 evo. You would be correct in me missing the mass production part of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_love_cars Posted October 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 Maybe it's driver, maybe it's not. My cars are relatively light. In 10 years of regular track duty I've seen e46 m3's and newer have brake problems every track weekend. The cars that don't typically have aftermarket kits on them. I've seen it in Intermediate and Advanced run groups, typically the instructors know by then that the stock brakes aren't worth the hassle and have upgraded. I saw your car at the BMW club weekend at Road America -- didn't you see any prorblems? One guy ran home for rotors, another needed brake pads -- it's totally common on a hard driven e46+. I'm glad your experiences have been different, but as you push your car harder I expect you'll probably see what I mean. yeah I count myself among the people where I say "most people don't have the skill to push the car to the limit..." - I am an intermediate-level driver and have done this for a few years now, but by no means am I pushing as hard as anyone in an advanced group on a DE or anyone who is doing wheel-to-wheel racing. But along that line, for an experienced driver I would submit most cars you buy other than something like a GT3 are going to struggle to keep up under such hard driving conditions on stock brakes, regardless of weight. If you are a very good driver and carry a lot of speed, you're going to eventually need a better brake package than OE. and that's a large part of what I'm trying to get at here - these cars are not race cars. They perform well and are totally competent for regular DE duty for most people. I run a good track pad and good fluid on stock rotors/calipers right now and that's good enough. I know it won't be forever, but it's plenty for now and that would apply to most drivers. Take a look around at any DE and probably 75% of people in the advanced groups have trailered cars that aren't even remotely close to stock, and for good reason. I definitely saw at least one dude have to go into town and try to source pads, lol But there were several e9x m3's that had no issues on stock brakes even though the guys all brought spare pad sets just in case. Granted I passed all of those guys as they weren't really driving that well, but that goes back to my point that for most people, these cars are just fine despite their weight. For reference I absolutely hear you on the e46 and submit that for some reason that particular car seems to just not have as good of brakes as you'd like out of the box. My good friend has one and I've driven it hard before he upgraded the brakes and it was night and day difference for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1990m3 Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 and that's a large part of what I'm trying to get at here - these cars are not race cars. But they are advertised as track ready cars -- all the car companies tout their cars as evil track machines. My point is that most of them are, until the weight of any of these new cars shows up around the second session. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B C Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 The stock brakes on my van are adequate for lapping daytona. It is a race van. rampelsauce 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally509 Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 Well guys have been cooking out brakes at track days since the beginning of time so... Not so sure solely blaming the weight of modern cars can be done here. Just my opinion. Flame on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 Cooking brakes also comes from inexperience too so I'm sure it is a case by case basis. Anyways, back to the M2 and less arguing about track days since none of us are full time racecar drivers lol andyhundley 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_love_cars Posted October 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 meh, I don't see any flaming going on at all here.I also don't see any irrelevance in us talking about the challenges of of overcoming the increasing weight of these cars in a thread about me potentially buying one of them. and it's my thread god dammit ! 1990m3, I think maybe we differentiate on terminology - I say they aren't advertised as race cars, you say they are advertised as track cars. To me, I don't equate "track ready" with "race ready". DEs are not races. There are no prizes and most people there are there because they don't want to race. They just want a relatively safe, controlled environment to push their cars harder than they can on the street and hopefully become better drivers. Racing implies pushing everything to the limit because you have something at stake and a legit competition. I think the track-ready angle of an M car is perfectly legit advertisement, unless you equate "track ready" with "race ready". Buuuuut that also doesn't mean there isn't a bit of advertising mixed in there that leans towards some potentially unrealistic expectations that you are talking about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally509 Posted October 17, 2015 Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 I was at Autobahn yesterday. Is this the car we're talking about? It says "M235i" on the back, not "M2". I didn't get the drive it, somebody already had it (and the M4) signed out yesterday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patsbimmer1 Posted October 17, 2015 Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 I was at Autobahn yesterday. Is this the car we're talking about? It says "M235i" on the back, not "M2".I didn't get the drive it, somebody already had it (and the M4) signed out yesterday.Pic-10162015-001.jpgNope, the m2 isn't out yet. That is not a true m car and more of a sport package. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan... Posted October 20, 2015 Report Share Posted October 20, 2015 I'm not being facetious when I ask this (I've stopped reading up on new BMW models since they all went turbo), but what exactly differentiates the new M models from the base models now? I know they'll come with more power and better chassis tuning, but could you take take a new 335i, slap a tune and some coils on it and get M3 performance for thousands upon thousands less? I'm still thinking back to the e46/e90 days where you couldn't take a 328i and ever hope to reach M3 levels of performance, or even a 330i to e46 M3 performance etc.. ^^ That was all serious, I'm not trying to be a dick about the newer cars by any means, I'm just super out of the loop lately.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B C Posted October 20, 2015 Report Share Posted October 20, 2015 I'm not being facetious when I ask this (I've stopped reading up on new BMW models since they all went turbo), but what exactly differentiates the new M models from the base models now? I know they'll come with more power and better chassis tuning, but could you take take a new 335i, slap a tune and some coils on it and get M3 performance for thousands upon thousands less? I'm still thinking back to the e46/e90 days where you couldn't take a 328i and ever hope to reach M3 levels of performance, or even a 330i to e46 M3 performance etc.. ^^ That was all serious, I'm not trying to be a dick about the newer cars by any means, I'm just super out of the loop lately..I have felt those same feelings, why get an M3/M4 when you can get a 335i with FBO/tune and make sweet power?!?Fortunately they haven't just done a half baked M car. I think the E36 M3 is more similar to a non-M E36 than an M3/M4 is to a 335.Heres a little link about some of the differences in the S55 engine over the N5X (cooling, oil system, closed deck block with coated cylinder bores instead of liners...) http://www.bmwblog.com/2013/09/25/meet-new-s55-engine/ it has a 9mm reduction in stroke as well. The M cars have a clutch type LSD where the 335i has a grandma diff, and im sure there are a LOT of differences but they are so subtle. For most folks I think a tuned 335i would be all that they need. The guys that go to the track would certainly appreciate the diff, cooling, and durability upgrades. S55 N55 (image wont embed) http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/attachment.php?s=5f552e05aa978049ce9df1c4c8899867&attachmentid=918423&stc=1&d=1380211029 S55 vs N55 (image wont embed) http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/attachment.php?s=5f552e05aa978049ce9df1c4c8899867&attachmentid=918234&stc=1&d=1380161479 patsbimmer1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_love_cars Posted October 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2015 I'm not being facetious when I ask this (I've stopped reading up on new BMW models since they all went turbo), but what exactly differentiates the new M models from the base models now? I know they'll come with more power and better chassis tuning, but could you take take a new 335i, slap a tune and some coils on it and get M3 performance for thousands upon thousands less? I'm still thinking back to the e46/e90 days where you couldn't take a 328i and ever hope to reach M3 levels of performance, or even a 330i to e46 M3 performance etc.. ^^ That was all serious, I'm not trying to be a dick about the newer cars by any means, I'm just super out of the loop lately.. understood. I have a lot of friends who also think I'm crazy for running a turbo car at the track and are NA BMW purists. Make no mistake, I agree with them but I just love my little 1er and the fact that it just isn't that common to see on a road course so I drive it anyway A 335 will never be on par with an M with a tune and some coils. The new BMW non-M models are so incredibly soft. My 135 is so soft. The chassis is a lot different too. A 135 saves a little weight over the 335 and most of the M3 bits just bolt right in, so given equal drivers, if you put a stock e92 M3 up against a 135i with LSD, coils, M3 front swaybar, M3 control arms, M3 subframe bushings, brakes, and a tune for some power, you would have a very close race around the track. a modified 335 probably has no chance of ever keeping up with an M3 unless you sink oodles of cash into it and even then questionable. If the M3 is even lightly modified, forget about it. The newer BMW non-M cars make amazing street cars, some of the best IMO. You can't beat the reliability of the motor and transmissions on anything N-series related, and you can't beat the communities behind them combined with the tuning they offer. But handling-wise and track-drivability, M is just leagues ahead and it'd cost gonzos dollars to keep up. That's why I'm not bastardizing the ride quality of my 135i - I'm gonna upgrade the turbo for fun on the street, and do very light suspension because while I track very often in summer, it's better to just buy the proper platform from the getgo if you want to start going suspension-mod crazy. I'll keep the 135i as a daily driver (or replace it with an M2, we'll see because with an upgraded turbo on the 135i i may just not care about an m2 anymore lol), and eventually buy a 4th car to be my dedicated track vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan... Posted October 20, 2015 Report Share Posted October 20, 2015 That's good to know, thanks for the explanations guys! In the future, should the 911 blow up on me, a 135i is what I've been thinking of getting.. I just haven't gotten around to doing ANY research on the motors/turbos etc.. Honestly the last thing I remember actually reading about was the HPFP when those were the "new" things lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_love_cars Posted October 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2015 i'll let you take mine for a spin at the meet on Saturday if you haven't driven a modified one before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patsbimmer1 Posted October 20, 2015 Report Share Posted October 20, 2015 i'll let you take mine for a spin at the meet on Saturday if you haven't driven a modified one before.Dont let him fool you, he took my 335i for a quick sprint with an e85 mix! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_love_cars Posted October 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 i'm on it. no freebies then! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_love_cars Posted December 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Now I definitely don't feel bad about further mods to the 135. I will now fully be expecting the M2 to depreciate like any normal M car and be available for significantly fewer dollars in 3 years' time. Maybe by then I'll be able to fit it by upgrading from my 3-car garage to something actually useful like a 10 car garage and a small stick hut to live in out front http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1201091 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 I like how the one guy said he might cancel his deposit and wait now because of this haha "It won't be a short run, low production car like I thought, screw everything else about it" B C 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_love_cars Posted December 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 yup, typical modern-day M buyer. For every 1 true enthusiast there are 10 buyers who are (foolishly) looking for an investment, or care more about side mirrors and engine codes than how the car actually drives. Why people have to be shitfucks i will never know. B C 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patsbimmer1 Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 I can't understand why anyone would buy any modern BMW expecting it to appreciate. A lot of the market on M cars is cyclical but I can't think of any modern production model that has greatly appreciated beyond original asking price. The 1M has the greatest outlook but any large appreciation wouldn't be for another 10 years at least. That's the 1 (no pun intended) modern BMW that I can think of that hasn't depreciated. Of just M cars made in the last 20 years, have any really taken off in price? Would anyone have made money on the value of the car if they purchased something new in '95? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsweers89 Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 I like how the one guy said he might cancel his deposit and wait now because of this haha"It won't be a short run, low production car like I thought, screw everything else about it"This was my thought on buying one. Now that I know that I will be switching to getting on the list for a m4 gts. That for sure will make money if I can still get on the list for only $10k over msrp. i_love_cars 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 yup, typical modern-day M buyer. For every 1 true enthusiast there are 10 buyers who are (foolishly) looking for an investment, or care more about side mirrors and engine codes than how the car actually drives. Why people have to be shitfucks i will never know. I also have a low tolerance for shitfucks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damnboy037 Posted December 5, 2015 Report Share Posted December 5, 2015 The best investment is learning, I heard people can become rich this way. I still want this car, but would rather get the 4gts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasnt m3 Posted December 5, 2015 Report Share Posted December 5, 2015 The best investment is learning, I heard people can become rich this way. I still want this car, but would rather get the 4gtsThe M4 GTS is a mere 3x as much as an M2.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damnboy037 Posted December 6, 2015 Report Share Posted December 6, 2015 I'll just sell one of my houses, who needs retirement money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.